Re: Language Debate to Ann Fill & IHOR SOLOVEY

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: : : RE: They balked to be named Ukrainians because they are Rusyns and not Ukrainians. They learned to live peacefully with Hungarians, Slovaks, Poles, Germans, Czechs, Rumanians, Russians, Ukrainians and Jews. Unlike in Ukraine, where pogroms, starting from the time of the Ukrainian Cossack leader Bogdan Chmelnicky : : Is it neccessary to misspell every Ukrainian name you hear? : : >, were frequent for several centuries, there was not one single case of a pogrom against Jews or Germans in this region that was initiated by Rusyns. After brutal annexation of Transcarpathia, (majority of Rusyns live here) to USSR by Stalin and years of exposure to the Soviet system, these people did not develop animosity towards the dominant Russians as you can see it in Baltic Republics or in the case of many Ukrainians. Currently, Transcarpathia has about 50 000 Russians. The Ukrainians are keen of Cossacks (kozac'koho rodu) as they defined themselves in their national anthem. Rusyns have nothing to do with Cossacks whatsoever. These are village centric, mountain people, their life is concentrated around family, church and community, and their history is very different. : : They may be ethnical Rusyns, but from my experience they have nothing against calling them Ukrainians (either as a citizen of Ukraine or even ethnical Ukrainian). You are the first person I encountered that makes such a big issue out of this. Did you live in Ukraine yourself? : : > Their language is closer to Ukrainian than to Russian language, but that's it. Currently, they would like to learn in schools their own Rusyn language, culture and history, to be called Rusyns and not Ukrainians, and have some control over their own life. : : Their culture and history is closely tied to Ukrainian and studied in regions where they live, I'm sure. As of being recognised as Rusyns, I haven't seen them eagerly want to do that, but maybe they should. It's their business whether they consider themselves Ukrainians or a different ethnos. : : > They are trying to reach these goals peacefully and not to secede from Ukraine. Well, Ukrainians have a chance to demonstrate that they can handle the Rusyn problem in a civilized way and not as Russians used to do it. As you may know, Ukrainians would like to join the EU. This should be a good litmus test for them. Finally, isn't it amazing how nationalistic feeling limits a capacity to think. The argument for compulsory use of Ukrainian language goes "because of closeness of Russia, the Russian speaking population becomes a part of Russia …etc". And what about Swiss French and language in Switzerland? The French speaking Swiss could be a part of France, but they do not wont to be. : : 1. Yes, but there is no independent Ruthenia. : : 2. I never noticed them so eagerly want to be recognised as different nation. Maybe you come from, say, Slovakian regions where Rusyns live and their national counsciousness is bigger? : : > Is it so difficult to comprehend that the Swiss French remained as a part of Switzerland because they have more control over their life? : : Than in France? : : : Sincerely, Joe : RE: TO IHOR SOLOVEY : : : RE: They balked to be named Ukrainians because they are Rusyns and not Ukrainians. They learned to live peacefully with Hungarians, Slovaks, Poles, Germans, Czechs, Rumanians, Russians, Ukrainians and Jews. Unlike in Ukraine, where pogroms, starting from the time of the Ukrainian Cossack leader Bogdan Chmelnicky : : Is it neccessary to misspell every Ukrainian name you hear? : : Why is it misspelled? Do you think that a nation building has to be based on a false history? : Do you know that in mind of Jews, particularly of the Holocaust survivors, Bogdan Chmelnicky or Khmelnytsky, whatever spelling you wish, is along the line of such murderers as Nabuchodonozor, Titus, Hitler and Eichman. Read the memoirs of the Holocaust survivors. After all, it was Bogdan Khmelnytsky who united the people of Ukraine with Russia lasting for 350 years. However, this is the distant past. The following should worry you: another Ukrainian patriot, Lubomyr Prytulak, (Vencouver, Canada) writes a letter to Rabbi Yaakov Dov Bleich, (Kyiv, Ukraine) instructing the Rabbi to modify or abandon the weekly prayer of Jews for victims of pogroms led by Ataman Bogdan Khmelnicky and his Cossacks. His motive is patriotic, nothing negative about Batjkivscyna. How would you like a Russian (or a Georgian--Stalin) request not to mention or pray for the victims of the Great Famine? In these days, in Slovakia, a group of nationalistic dignitaries in Zilina, a town in northern part of Slovakia, wanted to erect a memorial for the first Slovak President Tiso, because he was the First President of Slovakia. Nevertheless, he was also responsible for the death of 80 000 Slovak citizens who happened to be Jews. The public reaction was so strong against it that the dignitaries of this town concluded that it is better to drop this idea. Thank God, free press and democratic process improved in the last two years in Slovakia. : : >, were frequent for several centuries, there was not one single case of a pogrom against Jews or Germans in this region that was initiated by Rusyns. After brutal annexation of Transcarpathia, (majority of Rusyns live here) to USSR by Stalin and years of exposure to the Soviet system, these people did not develop animosity towards the dominant Russians as you can see it in Baltic Republics or in the case of many Ukrainians. Currently, Transcarpathia has about 50 000 Russians. The Ukrainians are keen of Cossacks (kozac'koho rodu) as they defined themselves in their national anthem. Rusyns have nothing to do with Cossacks whatsoever. These are village centric, mountain people, their life is concentrated around family, church and community, and their history is very different. : : They may be ethnical Rusyns, but from my experience they have nothing against calling them Ukrainians (either as a citizen of Ukraine or even ethnical Ukrainian). You are the first person I encountered that makes such a big issue out of this. > : : In this respect, your experience is very limited and fallacious. Rusyn nationality is recognized in Poland, Slovakia, Hungary, Yugoslavia, Czech Republic, Romania and, of course, in the USA. The only country, which rejects their recognition, is Ukraine. Apparently, the Ukrainians wont to demonstrate that they are at least as good as the Russians. : >Did you live in Ukraine yourself? : : Yes I did. : : > Their language is closer to Ukrainian than to Russian language, but that's it. Currently, they would like to learn in schools their own Rusyn language, culture and history, to be called Rusyns and not Ukrainians, and have some control over their own life. : : Their culture and history is closely tied to Ukrainian and studied in regions where they live, I'm sure: : : Nonsense, their culture is closely tied mainly to Hungarians and Slovaks. This was part of Kingdom of Hungary, Habsburgs , Czechoslovakia and again Hungary for 1000 years. This part of Europe became a domain of East Slavs (Russia, Ukraine) for the first time in history, after 1945. This was NEVER a part of Kyievan Rus. You should take in consideration the existence of the first Slavic state, Great Moravia, as well as the acceptance of Christianity by Slavs here (ancestors of Czechs Slovaks &Rusyns) in 863, five generations before Kyievan Rus accepted Christianity. There were some contacts with Kyievan Rus, at high levels (e.g. marriage between Kyievan Princess and Hungarian King etc.) as well as a part of population came from Galicia and Bukovina (e.g Koriatovych with 300 soldiers) following the Mongol invasion. On the other hand, for instance, the Valach’s colonization (Latin background) had far more profound effects on the Rusyn culture (also Slovaks and Czechs of Moravia) than Ukrainian and Russian ones combined, if you do not count the sovietization. The central part of Carpathian Mountains is not very high but it is not easy to cross them. There are basically two passes for crossing the Mountains, called Verecky and Jablunecky (perevaly), therefore the limited contacts towards East for centuries. By the way, these mountains stopped the advance of the Czarist Russian Army during the First WW and, during the Second WW, the Red Army crossed through the Dukla pass into the Danube Basin. This is located further west already on Polish--Slovak border. The strategic position of Podkarpatska Rus (Transcarpathia) was the main reason of annexation of this territory to USSR and later (it was a self-governing territory for about 1 and ½ years), in 1946, as Zakarpatska oblast was incorporated into Soviet Ukraine. The Carpathian Mountains had been a natural border between East-Central Europe and East Europe for thousand years. Even archeological evidence shows that, before Slavs moved here, Franks and Celts had dwellings in this region, while Scythians lived on Ukraine’s territory. : > As of being recognised as Rusyns, I haven't seen them eagerly want to do that, but maybe they should. : : They do. (Check at least “1999 Country Reports on Human Rights Practices.-Ukraine. by U.S. Department of State, February 25, 2000) http://www.state.gov/www/global/hu…ights/1999 page 26. This is also on the Ukrainian community board. : “Rusyns (Ruthenians) are calling for status as an official ethnic group in the country. At a congress held in Uzhhorod on June 27, representatives of the Rusyn community called for Rusyn-language schools, a rusyn-language department at Uzhhorod University, and for Rusyn to be included as one of the country’s ethnic groups in the 2001 census. According to Rusyn leaders, more than 700,000 Rusyns live in the country.” : This was the 5th World Congress of Rusyns and, obviously, the RUCH guys were strongly against it. At this point, patriotism causes intolerance and becoming a destructive human function. : It's their business whether they consider themselves Ukrainians or a different ethnos. : : Thank you, I appreciate it. History shows that building a country on Jefferson’s ideas (life, liberty and pursuit of happiness) is a good think to do. Life is irreplaceable, if the Rusyns want to be Rusyns, they should have that liberty and nobody should have right to degrade another person because he/she hovoryt po nashomu, magyarul, slovensky or po-rusky and nerozmovlaje ukrainskoiu movoiu. It cannot make non-Ukrainians happy if they are degraded because they are different. : : > They are trying to reach these goals peacefully and not to secede from Ukraine. Well, Ukrainians have a chance to demonstrate that they can handle the Rusyn problem in a civilized way and not as Russians used to do it. As you may know, Ukrainians would like to join the EU. This should be a good litmus test for them. Finally, isn't it amazing how nationalistic feeling limits a capacity to think. The argument for compulsory use of Ukrainian language goes "because of closeness of Russia, the Russian speaking population becomes a part of Russia …etc". And what about Swiss French and language in Switzerland? The French speaking Swiss could be a part of France, but they do not wont to be. : : 1. Yes, but there is no independent Ruthenia. : So what? It is true, because they have had stronger neighbors with a greater desire for centralized governments. It should be also taken in consideration that historical, cultural and economic connections particularly to Hungary, Poland, Czech and Slovak Republics are strong. These countries have a sizable minority of Rusyns as well. : : : 2. I never noticed them so eagerly want to be recognised as different nation. Maybe you come from, say, Slovakian regions where Rusyns live and their national counsciousness is bigger? : : It is not confined to Slovakian regions. See the materials from total of five congresses. The participants are Rusyns from Transcarpathia, Poland, Slovakia, Czech Republic, Hungary, Yugoslavia, and the USA. It is true that Slovakia has currently better political and economical conditions for Rusyns than Transcarpathia. : : > Is it so difficult to comprehend that the Swiss French remained as a part of Switzerland because they have more control over their life? : : Than in France? : : No question about it. Every major issue would be solved in Paris. Currently, it is done in Geneva or by local authorities. The red tape in Paris is several times bigger than in the French part of Switzerland. Why is the Swiss economy so efficient? Not because of the red tape. Switzerland has the highest GDP/capita, about $40 000; Germany and USA around $30 000; Slovakia $4000, Poland and Hungary $5 000 and Ukraine $600/capita. The region of Switzerland with adjacent parts of Italy, France and Germany has had a most vibrant economy on European continent. Unemployment was between 3 to 6%, in Germany and France over 10%. : : : Sincerely, Joe

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