Posted by Joe on March 22, 2000 at 20:01:38:
In Reply to: Re: Reply to Joe, Language debate posted by Yaroslav on March 21, 2000 at 19:57:42:
: Hi, Joe.
: I don't know if you ever had a chance to travel to Ukraine and speak Ukrainian there in the South or Estern part of the country or even in Kyiv.
: I will tell you my impression: Russian speakers don't want to tolerate Ukrainian, they will show their hostility if you speak Ukrainian. They will call you nationalist, bandera and so on. At least it was so during Soviet times. Ukrainian is my first language and I have nothing again Russian, Rusyn or any other language. However, if I see such a situation in my country I feel bad.
: By the way, why Rusyns in the US call themselves Russians? I visited few "Russian" Churches in New Jersey but didn't see a single Russian name in the lists of founders of those churches. I got some friends among paritioners, read church bulletins but still didn't see any Russian names there. And Rusyn language seems to be lost forever in the US from what I see. Well, if Rusyns in Ukraine want to preserve their language, culture etc., thats very nice. I had few friends from Transcapathia when I was in the military service for 2 years in the Pepublic of Georgia. They spoke good Ukrainian and Russian and also Rusyn among themselves. So, everybody speaks the way he wants. Ukrainian is a nice language and it must live, not die. And for you just a little suggestion, read a book "Russia under the old regime" by Richard Pipes. I don't think you will call yourself of Russian extraction anymore (but Ruthenian or Rusyn) after you finish reading. So long. Yaroslav.
: : : ----------------------------------------------
: : : I can't tell you how sorry I am that I started to learn the Ukrainian language. It's a beautiful language to be sure, but to learn it to what avail? So a person can read bigoted narrow-minded
: : : crap like this in the native language?? This nonsense is just repulsive to a native American.
:
: : : I never did understand why so many peaceful people of the Carpathian Mtns balked at being identified as Ukrainians. But if this intolerant attitude is typical, then their attitude seems more understandable.
: : RE: They balked to be named Ukrainians because they are Rusyns and not Ukrainians. They learned to live peacefully with Hungarians, Slovaks, Poles, Germans, Czechs, Rumanians, Russians, Ukrainians and Jews. Unlike in Ukraine, where pogroms, starting from the time of the Ukrainian Cossack leader Bogdan Chmelnicky, were frequent for several centuries, there was not one single case of a pogrom against Jews or Germans in this region that was initiated by Rusyns. After brutal annexation of Transcarpathia, (majority of Rusyns live here) to USSR by Stalin and years of exposure to the Soviet system, these people did not develop animosity towards the dominant Russians as you can see it in Baltic Republics or in the case of many Ukrainians. Currently, Transcarpathia has about 50 000 Russians. The Ukrainians are keen of Cossacks (kozac'koho rodu) as they defined themselves in their national anthem. Rusyns have nothing to do with Cossacks whatsoever. These are village centric, mountain people, their life is concentrated around family, church and community, and their history is very different. Their language is closer to Ukrainian than to Russian language, but that's it. Currently, they would like to learn in schools their own Rusyn language, culture and history, to be called Rusyns and not Ukrainians, and have some control over their own life. They are trying to reach these goals peacefully and not to secede from Ukraine. Well, Ukrainians have a chance to demonstrate that they can handle the Rusyn problem in a civilized way and not as Russians used to do it. As you may know, Ukrainians would like to join the EU. This should be a good litmus test for them. Finally, isn't it amazing how nationalistic feeling limits a capacity to think. The argument for compulsory use of Ukrainian language goes "because of closeness of Russia, the Russian speaking population becomes a part of Russia …etc". And what about Swiss French and language in Switzerland? The French speaking Swiss could be a part of France, but they do not wont to be. Is it so difficult to comprehend that the Swiss French remained as a part of Switzerland because they have more control over their life?
: : Sincerely, Joe
Hi Yaroslav,
Thanks for sharing with me your experience with some Russians in eastern part of Ukraine as well as your experience with Rusyns from Transcarpathia who spoke Russian, Ukrainian and Rusyn languages. Fortunately or unfortunately, I did not have such negative experience with the Russian chauvinism as you, but I do know them as well as the "Veliko-Ruskij chauvinism", even if I did not read the Pifer's book. Is this the same Mr. Pifer who was a security adviser during the Regan's presidency? I'll put this book on my list. Thank you again! However, I red a number of them starting with Solzenicyn's novel "Odin den Ivana Denisovica", Menachem Begin's (the former PM of Israel) "White Nights of a Prisoner in Russia " and a dozen of other books dealing with Russia. However, I have witnessed a pathological nationalism in some Hungarians and Slovaks. It is even funny to observe them how these sorts of nationalists define each other with negativism. Fortunately, parliaments of both countries did a pretty good job in legislation and protection of minorities. You know that both countries want to be a member of EU and legislation has to be compatible with the EU norms. The vast majority of Rusyns are not confused with identity who is Rusyn, Ukrainian or Russian, and they are fully aware that they are less related to Russians than Belorussians and Ukrainians to Russians. The majority of Rusyns are represented by Dolenyany, Rusyns living in low land. Those people for instance in such big villages as Luchky, Klucharky, Davydkovo have far more common customs, work ethic, psychology etc. with Hungarians than with Ukrainians and far less with Russians. It is understandable, since they (Rusyns and Hungarians) lived together for 1000 years and assimilation occurred in both directions, although far more towards the dominant nation of Hungarians in the past. Even today, it is not surprising that a number of Rusyns from towns speak Hungarian as well. Multilingual individuals are not rare in this region. Before the WW, there were Rusyns who could communicate even in Jidish. The confusion between the words Rus and Russia occurred mainly here in America and partly caused by Rusyn intellectuals. The Rusyn intellectuals did not do a good job in the past. To counterbalance the cultural superiority of Hungarians and Germans, as a member of East Slavs (Rus people), the Rusyn intellectuals turned either towards the Russian language and culture or to Ukrainian ones, and only few of them were concentrated on language and culture of their own people. Since Podkarpatska Rus is a gateway to Central Europe, it is not difficult to imagine all kinds of attempts to gain an influence in this region by big and sometimes very ruthless neighbors. Well, Ukrainians got a chance to demonstrate that they can deal fairly with the Rusyn problem, even better than the First Czechoslovak Republic of Tomas Garyk Masaryk.