ADVERTISEMENT
Make your own magical egg!
Posted by Mother Teresa's Lawyer on September 22, 2005 at 13:33:38:
In Reply to: And that's okay? posted by Alex on September 17, 2005 at 15:58:36:
Alex,
I certainly don't condone the anti-semitism in the posts here and I've been known to slip myself but I try not to and keep my strongest jibes for women, gays and blacks.
But I think the argument about jews is not that they tried to make everyone communist or tried to destroy the culture and to make everyone a capitalist. The real charge is that jews didn't care about the ultimate utility of these approaches to society, they just saw a way to get ahead and did whatever they had to to benefit themselves and their families. If it was to their advantage to enforce russification - no problem; if it was better to teach and promote ukrianian - no problem there either. Clearly this is not all jews but the minority and it's the minority in most societies that stand out as well. Mind you these are not my views but it's what i've distilled from the anti-semites I socialize with here in Sev.
What I do think, however, is that you are wrong and little to demand and apology from the UPA or SS H before you even begin discussing an apology from the jews to ukraine. Why not take the high road for a change?
: Hahaha very funny...
: You know there is a saying in Russian: "For all in the world the Jews must be blamed, for stealings, for killings for bringing us hell. For that that a Jewish girl has shot our leader (Fanny Caplan, attempted assasination of Lenin in 1918), and for the fact that she missed him as well". In Russia the Jews were constantly blamed for the fact that they were corrupt capitalists that have allegedlly tried to destroy communism. Cosmpolitanism (an attempt to plot a counter-revolution) was a constant charge leveled at many Jews in Soviet Union. And in Ukraine the Jews are blamed for promoting Communism and trying to destroy the Ukrainian culture! So let's see the Jews are both corrupt capitalists as well as crazy commies? Wow! Do you see the logic here (or lack thereof)? You cannot judge an entire nation the actions or the ideological leanings of the few. As to Jewish participation in the famine, yes there were Jewish members in the Communist party (although they were not the majority at this time - maybe 5-10 in the Central Comittee at that time and one in the Politburo - Kaganovich) who participated in promoting in the famine however it was the local Ukrainian party officials who actually implememnted it on the ground! They could have said no and not to starve their own people to death but they preferred to comply. Therefore these officials are also complicit in the famine. And so now Ukrainians have to beat the crap out their own people, right?
: Also while there were a few Jews who participated in this tragedy 95% of the Jewish population in the Soviet Union were just regular people like trying to get by. As a former Jewish citizen of the Soviet Union, I can tell you that the vast majority of Jews in the USSR were concerned with living their lives, making sure that their kids get into university (as they the admission comittees weren't really nice to Jews in Ukraine as well) and will not be harrassed in school, and trying to get that elusive promotion at work that would have been granted a long time ago but because of the "5th section in the passport" (that states your nationality) is constantly delayed. We were just people like you trying to live our lives and "participation in the systematic effort to destroy the Ukrainian language and culture" was the furthest thing from our minds. You want an apology for the crimes of our few? How about an apology for the huge massacres of Jews commited by Boghdan Hmelntinsky and co. in the mid 17th century? Or how about an apology for huge pogroms in Ukraine in the early 20th century that thousands of Jews to leave the country. And last but not least how about an apology from the UPA and SS Halychyna armymen who served as guardsmen in death camps and actually participated in the Holocaust? How about that? Once you apologize for all this, than we can discuss about an apology from us. It is ridicolous that entire nations need to apologize for the crimes of the few. Even more so, to beat up on innocent people and then justifying it.
: : Many are unable to forget historical atrocities committed against Ukrainians by Russia (and Poland) that were aided by the Jewish population of Ukraine. For example many Jews were commissars in charge of starving up to 15 million Ukrainians to death during the Ukraine holocaust famine of the 1930's. In Soviet Russian times Jews participated in the systematic effort to destroy the Ukrainian language and culture. Perhaps the Jews living in Ukraine today can atone for their sins by helping to promote the Ukrainian language and sovereignty that they helped to attempt to destroy? Perhaps they can publicly apologize and compensate? In Russia Jews are not free to do anything and are too terified to complain because any complaint will not be tolerated. In Ukraine this would go a long way to improve Jewish relations. Perhaps you mistake what may be misguided anger or retribution for anti-semitism.