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Posted by Alex on September 17, 2005 at 15:18:58:

In Reply to: Re: Alex, my apologies - with no login p/w posted by system - it is not clear who posts what on September 17, 2005 at 13:15:40:

Thank you for you post!
Now that we have the identity issue rectified, allow me to address some of the comments. First and foremost, in Canada if you do something like what was done in Ukraine on Sept 12 and Aug 26 (the two attacks), you would be charged with assault and racial harrasment, a very serious offence according the Canadian Criminal Code that carries a prison term. There are criminal precedents for this, as there were some attacks on members of the Jewish community in Toronto as well as in Montreal and the offenders were tried and convicted. In short the authorities' response to such incidents in Canada was far more efficient to say they least as the response of their Ukrainian counterparts. THIS is what gives me pause about moving back from Canada not the Ukrainian people whose vast majority which I think are great (And no I do not believe we need to judge Ukrainians based on the actions of a few bigots and please accept my apologies if my comments suggested otherwise, they were a bit generalizing, I admit)! And yes I know that there were strides made in combatting bigotry in Ukraine and having a president like Yuschenko who has very strong ties to the Jewish community helps. However more needs to be done such as academic (if you can all them as such) institutions like MAUP should be completely discredited and deplored by the authorities instead of sending a Verhkovna Rada deputy (see my prevous link on the matter) from Yulia Timoshenko's party as the guest of honour for David Duke's degree convening who also engaged in borderline Anti-Semitic comments which sends the wrong signals about the government's attitude towards Jews. In addition people like Oleh Tyahnibok should have no place in the Verkhovna Rada http://www.korespondent.net/main/30220 as presence of people like him show that you can be a bigot as well as a Verkhovna Rada deputy or somewhere else in government. Again to draw an analogy to Canada, Anti-Semitic comments by a native leader have led to a hige scandal, causing him to be completely discredited and to give up his Order of Canada (http://www.ctv.ca/servlet/ArticleNews/story/CTVNews/1121121312948_116530512).
Having said all that, I realize that Ukraine is still an emerging democracy compared to Canada and that there will be bumps in the road. What I meant by saying "If you live in a democratic society ..." was actually more like "If you want to live in a democratic society ..." (and my apologies for the typo). My point here is that combatting bigotry is one of the things that Ukraine needs to do in order to become a liberal democracy, and therefore I believe it is my duty to point out such things not because I hate Ukraine or want it to screw itself up but because I love Ukraine it to do better.

: : Independence is not only a right, it comes with a responsibility. Just like Ukraine has every reason to be proud of its achievments, its people and its culture, it also needs to take responsibility for things in the country that need improvement. Antisemitism and bigotry is a problem in Ukraine that needs to be tackled.

: I completely agree. And would go further in that attacks on muslim publishing firms, religious groups (other than mainstream) being stymied, ... all has to change. Religious tolerance and ethnic diversity should be the norm. Unfortunately, it is an ideal that is difficult to reach but nontheless it is the goal that forever progress must be made towards.

: : (it just hooliganism of course)

: I do not understand why the police charged them the way the did and not with assault. And yes, I agree with the following - I assume he meant they as in police/authorities but this was not indicated - "They again demonstrated an evident stupidity, indulging [anti-Semitism] instead of combating it," said Vadim Rabinovych, head of the All-Ukrainian Jewish Congress."
: http://www.haaretzdaily.com/hasen/spages/625559.html

: : If you live in a democratic society ...

: Is Ukraine a free democratic society? or is it a managed democratic society? is it a true civil society? I think that its people and government are still in the formation of such. With over a million falsified votes in the second round of elections and hundreds of thousands having to demonstrate for WEEKS (just months ago) in order to try to secure their right to a free and fair election - are you meeting Ukraine where it currently is or where you hope it will progress to?

: : it is a right and a responsibility to question or leaders or point to certain problems in the country so that the leadership can tackle it.

: Again - you want Ukraine to hold to an ideal (as do I) but recognize that it is still transferring from a dictatorship/managed democracy to a liberal democracy - just allowing your populace to cast a vote, does not mean that you have a democratic culture or political legittimacy. This does not mean that people/institutions should not be held accountable nor quarter but to hold an entire nation responsible for the actions of the few ("I am Jewish myself and I really want to move back to Kiev from Canada but incidents like that give pause.") --- is this realistic? or is it as others have said - smears and propaganda? In other words - how different are you from Michael Horan and his posts? There is anti-semiticism in Canada and yet you are able to peaceably reside there - http://www.nizkor.org/hweb/people/m/mock-karen/countering-hate.html
: http://www.bnaibrith.ca/league/articles/km010913.html

: AND you did not post anything about progress being made -
: "8000 Chassidic Jews Celebrate New Year In Ukraine

: 11.09.2002, [20:38] // Jewish Communities //

: Approximately 8,000 Chassidic Jews recently arrived in the city of Uman in central Ukraine’s Cherkasy region to celebrate the holiday of Rosh Hashanah, which according to the Jewish calendar marks the beginning of the New Year. This news was reported on 9 September 2002.

: Uman was chosen as the site of the celebration since Rabbi Nahman, the founder of the Bratslav movement in Chassidism, is buried there. Since the Chassidic pilgrimage to Ukraine was revived in 1988, from 3 to 5 thousand Jews come to visit Uman annually.

: This year, over seven thousand Jews flew to Ukraine from Israel to take part in the festivities. For this reason, Ukrainian customs and police officers, border guards and representatives of airline companies started an organizing committee to coordinate work on the reception of guests.

: “We arranged special areas and everything went smoothly and without any accidents,” reported the press service of Boryspil Airport customs in Kyiv.

: Rabbi Nahman, spiritual leader of the Chassids, was born in the city of Medzhybizh (currently, the territory of the Khmelnytsk region) in 1772 (5532, according to the Jewish calendar). He used to travel much across the country and visited many cities of Ukraine. Rabbi Nahman spent his last eight years in Bratslav in the Vinnytsia region. In 1808, he came down with tuberculosis and settled in Uman, where he died two years later. Since then, Uman has become a mecca for Chassids, where they gather to celebrate the Jewish New Year."

: OR

:
: "Ukraine seeks end to trade law
: Ukraine’s president sought American Jewish support for efforts to graduate from American trade restrictions.

: In a meeting Thursday in New York, NCSJ: Advocates on Behalf of Jews in Russia, Ukraine, the Baltic States and Eurasia told Viktor Yuschenko that they would support Ukraine’s graduation from the Jackson-Vanik amendment, trade restrictions imposed on former Soviet countries based on their treatment of Jews and other human-rights issues.

: NCSJ Executive Director Mark Levin said American Jewish leaders were grateful for the Ukrainian government’s fast response to several recent anti-Semitic incidents, and have asked Yuschenko to cut remaining ties with anti-Semitic groups."

: : So I post something regarding Anti-Semitism in Ukraine what do I get called?

: I apologize for getting my signals crossed between your posts and MTL - please accept my apologies and I hope that in future, soon, the forum will be changed so that people post using a login/pw system as it is difficult to keep track of diff. posters with people choosing not to post regularly under a single name (for which I cannot blame them, as I do not do so myself with people posting messages under other people's names.)

: : You call yourself a Ukrainian patriot and yet you refuse to rectify certain very important issues in your country that have to do with global human rights and make it even better.

: It is unfair and unjust to hold me responsible for the actions of ALL Ukrainians because I love my country. Makes no sense at all and this is the type of extremist thinking (like holding you responsible for the actions of Canadian neo-Nazis) is completely wrong and you know it. I have zero tolerance for stupid thinking (bigotry and hatred)and try to follow a righteous path, which is not easy.

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: Thank you for you post! : Now that we have the identity issue rectified, allow me to address some of the comments. First and foremost, in Canada if you do something like what was done in Ukraine on Sept 12 and Aug 26 (the two attacks), you would be charged with assault and racial harrasment, a very serious offence according the Canadian Criminal Code that carries a prison term. There are criminal precedents for this, as there were some attacks on members of the Jewish community in Toronto as well as in Montreal and the offenders were tried and convicted. In short the authorities' response to such incidents in Canada was far more efficient to say they least as the response of their Ukrainian counterparts. THIS is what gives me pause about moving back from Canada not the Ukrainian people whose vast majority which I think are great (And no I do not believe we need to judge Ukrainians based on the actions of a few bigots and please accept my apologies if my comments suggested otherwise, they were a bit generalizing, I admit)! And yes I know that there were strides made in combatting bigotry in Ukraine and having a president like Yuschenko who has very strong ties to the Jewish community helps. However more needs to be done such as academic (if you can all them as such) institutions like MAUP should be completely discredited and deplored by the authorities instead of sending a Verhkovna Rada deputy (see my prevous link on the matter) from Yulia Timoshenko's party as the guest of honour for David Duke's degree convening who also engaged in borderline Anti-Semitic comments which sends the wrong signals about the government's attitude towards Jews. In addition people like Oleh Tyahnibok should have no place in the Verkhovna Rada http://www.korespondent.net/main/30220 as presence of people like him show that you can be a bigot as well as a Verkhovna Rada deputy or somewhere else in government. Again to draw an analogy to Canada, Anti-Semitic comments by a native leader have led to a hige scandal, causing him to be completely discredited and to give up his Order of Canada (http://www.ctv.ca/servlet/ArticleNews/story/CTVNews/1121121312948_116530512). : Having said all that, I realize that Ukraine is still an emerging democracy compared to Canada and that there will be bumps in the road. What I meant by saying "If you live in a democratic society ..." was actually more like "If you want to live in a democratic society ..." (and my apologies for the typo). My point here is that combatting bigotry is one of the things that Ukraine needs to do in order to become a liberal democracy, and therefore I believe it is my duty to point out such things not because I hate Ukraine or want it to screw itself up but because I love Ukraine it to do better. : : : Independence is not only a right, it comes with a responsibility. Just like Ukraine has every reason to be proud of its achievments, its people and its culture, it also needs to take responsibility for things in the country that need improvement. Antisemitism and bigotry is a problem in Ukraine that needs to be tackled. : : I completely agree. And would go further in that attacks on muslim publishing firms, religious groups (other than mainstream) being stymied, ... all has to change. Religious tolerance and ethnic diversity should be the norm. Unfortunately, it is an ideal that is difficult to reach but nontheless it is the goal that forever progress must be made towards. : : : (it just hooliganism of course) : : I do not understand why the police charged them the way the did and not with assault. And yes, I agree with the following - I assume he meant they as in police/authorities but this was not indicated - "They again demonstrated an evident stupidity, indulging [anti-Semitism] instead of combating it," said Vadim Rabinovych, head of the All-Ukrainian Jewish Congress." : : http://www.haaretzdaily.com/hasen/spages/625559.html : : : If you live in a democratic society ... : : Is Ukraine a free democratic society? or is it a managed democratic society? is it a true civil society? I think that its people and government are still in the formation of such. With over a million falsified votes in the second round of elections and hundreds of thousands having to demonstrate for WEEKS (just months ago) in order to try to secure their right to a free and fair election - are you meeting Ukraine where it currently is or where you hope it will progress to? : : : it is a right and a responsibility to question or leaders or point to certain problems in the country so that the leadership can tackle it. : : Again - you want Ukraine to hold to an ideal (as do I) but recognize that it is still transferring from a dictatorship/managed democracy to a liberal democracy - just allowing your populace to cast a vote, does not mean that you have a democratic culture or political legittimacy. This does not mean that people/institutions should not be held accountable nor quarter but to hold an entire nation responsible for the actions of the few ("I am Jewish myself and I really want to move back to Kiev from Canada but incidents like that give pause.") --- is this realistic? or is it as others have said - smears and propaganda? In other words - how different are you from Michael Horan and his posts? There is anti-semiticism in Canada and yet you are able to peaceably reside there - http://www.nizkor.org/hweb/people/m/mock-karen/countering-hate.html : : http://www.bnaibrith.ca/league/articles/km010913.html : : AND you did not post anything about progress being made - : : "8000 Chassidic Jews Celebrate New Year In Ukraine : : 11.09.2002, [20:38] // Jewish Communities // : : Approximately 8,000 Chassidic Jews recently arrived in the city of Uman in central Ukraine’s Cherkasy region to celebrate the holiday of Rosh Hashanah, which according to the Jewish calendar marks the beginning of the New Year. This news was reported on 9 September 2002. : : Uman was chosen as the site of the celebration since Rabbi Nahman, the founder of the Bratslav movement in Chassidism, is buried there. Since the Chassidic pilgrimage to Ukraine was revived in 1988, from 3 to 5 thousand Jews come to visit Uman annually. : : This year, over seven thousand Jews flew to Ukraine from Israel to take part in the festivities. For this reason, Ukrainian customs and police officers, border guards and representatives of airline companies started an organizing committee to coordinate work on the reception of guests. : : “We arranged special areas and everything went smoothly and without any accidents,” reported the press service of Boryspil Airport customs in Kyiv. : : Rabbi Nahman, spiritual leader of the Chassids, was born in the city of Medzhybizh (currently, the territory of the Khmelnytsk region) in 1772 (5532, according to the Jewish calendar). He used to travel much across the country and visited many cities of Ukraine. Rabbi Nahman spent his last eight years in Bratslav in the Vinnytsia region. In 1808, he came down with tuberculosis and settled in Uman, where he died two years later. Since then, Uman has become a mecca for Chassids, where they gather to celebrate the Jewish New Year." : : OR : : : : "Ukraine seeks end to trade law : : Ukraine’s president sought American Jewish support for efforts to graduate from American trade restrictions. : : In a meeting Thursday in New York, NCSJ: Advocates on Behalf of Jews in Russia, Ukraine, the Baltic States and Eurasia told Viktor Yuschenko that they would support Ukraine’s graduation from the Jackson-Vanik amendment, trade restrictions imposed on former Soviet countries based on their treatment of Jews and other human-rights issues. : : NCSJ Executive Director Mark Levin said American Jewish leaders were grateful for the Ukrainian government’s fast response to several recent anti-Semitic incidents, and have asked Yuschenko to cut remaining ties with anti-Semitic groups." : : : So I post something regarding Anti-Semitism in Ukraine what do I get called? : : I apologize for getting my signals crossed between your posts and MTL - please accept my apologies and I hope that in future, soon, the forum will be changed so that people post using a login/pw system as it is difficult to keep track of diff. posters with people choosing not to post regularly under a single name (for which I cannot blame them, as I do not do so myself with people posting messages under other people's names.) : : : You call yourself a Ukrainian patriot and yet you refuse to rectify certain very important issues in your country that have to do with global human rights and make it even better. : : It is unfair and unjust to hold me responsible for the actions of ALL Ukrainians because I love my country. Makes no sense at all and this is the type of extremist thinking (like holding you responsible for the actions of Canadian neo-Nazis) is completely wrong and you know it. I have zero tolerance for stupid thinking (bigotry and hatred)and try to follow a righteous path, which is not easy.

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