Posted by Kraweckin on July 29, 2002 at 19:55:57:
In Reply to: Re: RE: UPA posted by AndriyMax on July 29, 2002 at 06:55:39:
Your arguments are inconvincing and exaggerated: UPA Warriors were dressed in Wermacht's uniform????
RE: Ukraiński Piemont ANDRZEJ JANECKI
1939: kilka miesięcy niepodległej Ukrainy
Głównym zadaniem rządu stała się organizacja lokalnych sił zbrojnych - Siczy Karpackiej, utworzonej przy pomocy OUN-owców z zagranicy, mających doświadczenie wojskowe jeszcze z okresu walk z Polską w latach 1918-19. To oni nadali jej kształt organizacyjny, wzorowany na oddziałach SS i SA. Nominalnym dowódcą Siczy został wprawdzie miejscowy polityk Dmytro Klempus, ale faktycznie kierował nią przybyły z Polski Roman Szuchewycz, późniejszy dowódca UPA. Początkowo siły zbrojne autonomii liczyły 2000 ludzi, by wkrótce rozrosnąć się do blisko 6 tysięcy. Instruktorami Siczy Karpackiej zostało dwustu Niemców sudeckich oddelegowanych przez Abwehrę. Wysokie morale i fachowość dowódców czyniły z tej jednostki trudnego przeciwnika.
Sytuacja na Karpato-Ukrainie była niestabilna. Abwehra wykorzystywała żołnierzy Siczy do rozpoznania polskich stanowisk obronnych w Karpatach. Węgrzy, którzy wciąż nie rezygnowali z roszczeń terytorialnych, wysyłali tam grupy dywersyjne dopuszczające się aktów sabotażu i siejące zamęt. To samo, ale na mniejszą skalę, robili Polacy.
Dmytro Klempus from Zakarpattja was used as cover up that Karpatska Sich was de facto under complete control of Roman Shukhevich and hundreds of his comrades in arms who created UPA. The uniforms of the members of Karpatska Sich were from Wermacht and the structure was according to SS and SA units. These Sich guys were trained by 200 SS and SA experts from Henlein’s Sudeten Deutsche. Nazi Henlein was sentenced in Nuremberg as a Nazi War Criminal. I do have pictures in my possession of the members of Karpatska Sich in the Nazi Wermacht uniforms. You can find those pictures in the book of Dr. Julius Chiminec “My Observations of Carpathian Ukraine” 1984. Library of Congress Catalog Card Number 83 - 91314 (see particularly the page 94 the “Prohuljka Sychovykiv do Vidnja”). It is shame that you are rushing to declare them as heroes without doing your homework.
Even now you're completely ignoring the information presented on this board as the above quote from the Polish sources.
Comparing NKVD and UPA??? USSR was a criminal country.
Why "Ukrainian Derzhava" was a criminal country????
What a question! How the vast majority of Ukrainian live? The despotism was there in times of Hetjmans and it is there now. The worth thing is that Ukrainians do not see the strong propensity of Ukrainian society towards the centralized despotism. For the vast majority of Ukrainians the “Ukrajinska Derzhava” is most important thing on this world and in the same time forgetting that any kind of “Derzhava” is important only if it can create a decent life for majority of people in that particular Derzhava.
: : : Boy. Someone really knows how to stir up a hornets nest.
: : :::A hornet's nest will be stirred up as long as Ukrainians will view fascist as heroes.
: : : The UPA as freedom fighters, to us Ukrainians that is how we do and should view them.
: : ::: However, the neighbors of Ukraine and non-Ukrainians in Ukraine will NEVER accept it. How can a decent human being accept a person as "freedom fighter" dressed in Wermacht's uniform of Hitler era that was trained by SS and SA experts? To be a hero is not sufficient just to hate the communism and communists. Hitler also hated the communism and communists.
: : : Did they commit attrocities? perhaps , or perhaps not; they definately were not a group of Santa's Elves.
: : ::: Did NKVD commit atrocities? Perhaps, or perhaps not; they definitely served the most progressive state, the state of working people where exploitation of a human being by another human being was completely and forever eliminated. If UPA served the idea of Great Ukrainian Derzhava using all available means why should NKVD be considered criminal since they served also a great Soviet Derzhava?
: : Oh, Soviet Derzhava got rotten. Thus, NKVD should be criminal. And what about Ukrainian Derzhava? Not rotten? Oh, the enemies of Ukrainian Derzhava have been wilfully destroying it. But also the Soviet Derzhava had plenty of enemies and if there were none than, particularly NKVD, produced it. Just like current Ukrainian Derzhava.
: : Most guerrilla / Partisan groups that have operated in world history are not known for their acts of kindness, and brotherly love.
: : :::The best example is the Pol Pot guerilla group. After all who was bin Ladin, not a guerilla?
: : : History will ultimately reveal the truth, so long as it is left alone by revisionist and biased idiots.
: : :::Including biased nationalistic idiots.
: : : ...............
: : : Now if you really want to dig up ancient history. In so far as war crimes, attrocities, and etc. that have occurred between Polacks, and us Ukes. Dating back to the 16th cent.; when uninvited Poles started showing up on our turf: the Poles, would win hands down. Now, If you are to dumb to catch the hint given by our lack of hospitality, let me be blunt . F*** the H*LL OFF.
: : :::The same"F*** the H*LL OFF" is valid for Ukrainians in those territories that were NEVER historically part of Ukraine. Nobody invited them! They came as refugees asking political asylum. Unfortunately they got it and were treated very fairly. The payback was collaboration with Nazi Germany. Subsequently, they came as Stalin's liberators reminding ancient hordes from the East.
: : : The Ukrainian Nation is working on improving itself, unfortunately there still a lot of leftover sh*t to be cleaned up that other visiting nations (Russia / Poland) left behind.
: : :::Ukraine should keep its improvement confined to Ukrainians and not spreading it over to other nations in the name of Soborna UKRAINA that was build on STALIN'S IMPERIALISM.