Re: Djakuju mamko, za ukrajinske z'ytja, to Ihor

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: : : : : To IHOR from JOE : : : : is indicative of a high degree of cultural cross-fertilization (linguistic and even religious) and generally paints a portrait two peoples in harmonious symbiosis. Even the work of Gross and Cohen, which is particularly strident in its accusations against the Rusyns, refers to Jewish and Rusyn children playing together as well as the use by Rusyns of Jewish Rabbinical courts and Jewish midwives. : : Ihor: So what? You're trying to claim that all (or even majority of)Ukrainians, Poles, Russians etc. were anti-semitic and didn't let their children play with Jewish kids? : : RE: No, but I am saying that children from families of Ukranian and Polish nationalists more frequently used such expression as "Parshyvyj Zhyd". : Ihor: Only in your imagination. : RE: Your ignorance is blessing. Hungarian nationalists use "Budos Szido" and Slovaks "Smradlavy Zid". : : : Following the dismemberment of Czechoslovakia forced by the Nazis in October 1938, the Ukrainophiles set up (initially with the assistance of the Russophiles) the first autonomous government in Subcarpathian Rus', later calling it Carpatho- Ukraine. These developments from the new capital of Chust were alarming to the Jewish community. One memoir records that Jews were afraid to travel after hours, since "non-Jews [were] going about in the streets like drunkards, screaming dire threats against Jews : and their businesses." : : Ihor: Joe, some anti-semitism exists everywhere. There are many memoirs where people of Jewish origin try to pass their personal opinions or even complete forgeries as truth (Simon Wiesenthal, for one. http://www.ukar.org/wiesen.shtml). : : I do not know exactly what are you trying to convey, but the fact is that Simon Whisenthal did a great job in restoring the justice. : Ihor: And that page exposes his forgeries. He did a great job of lying and forging. But read the page, if it doesn't load get an updated version of a browser or something, I don't know why it doesn't support Server-side html files. : RE: Crap! Read Simon Whisenthal's memoirs. Ukrainian fascists have to be very angry wth him because he (Whisenthal) is from Lvov (Lemberg) and knows very well the Ukrainian fascism, speaks fluently Ukrainian and knows the historyof Ukraine. : : Ihor: But the truth is: although many Ukrainians (yes, those include Ukrainian Rusyns), Russians, Poles etc. did not like Jews, they would never massively massacre them. : : RE: What about the great leader Bogdan Khmelnicky and later the Ukrainian guards. : Ihor: Khmelnytsky massacring Jews because they are Jews (ethnic cleansing)? Never seen the proof. Perhaps you have it? : RE: Of course, you cannot find it in historic books written by nationalistic historians of Ukraine. There are a number of Ukrainian History books from historians of non-Jewish heritage who documented it. There was even attempts of fanatic Ukrainian nationalists to eliminate these history books and forbid the Jewish prayer for victims of Khmelnickij's massacres. It went so far that even Rabbi Bleich of Kiyev was pressed to forbid the prayer. Nationalistic Ukrainians also from Canada were involved in this "glorious nationalistic endeavor" : Ihor: The Ukrainian guards? Here's a real surprise for you: there were even Jewish guards! : RE: Not surprise. It is also in Whisenthal's memoirs. The big difference was that Jews who refused to serve as a capo went into the gas chamber immediately. The Ukrainians did not face this choice between immediate death and life. I think your attempts of covering up the dirtiness of Ukrainian nationalism is getting boring. : : Do you want to claim that the famous guard Ivan Hroznyj was not Ukrainian? : Ihor: Huh? Ivan "Grozny" (The Terrible) was a Russian tsar. : RE: Hmm. You never heared about the most cruel Ukrainian Nazi gard. : : Nationalism enhanced the destructive nature of human beings. See Hlinkove gardy in Tiso's Slovakia. : Ihor: I heard about Nazi-made Slovakia and how the Slovak people today consider him a hero, but I don't know much else, so I won't judge neither them, nor Tiso and co. : RE: The vast majority of people today in Slovakia do not consider him a hero. This is a big difference between democratic process in Slovakia and Ukraine. : : Ihor:Most of the people don't even care what your origin is. They didn't in those times too, no matter what Ukrainophobes try to tell us. : : RE: Let's hope that is the case. : : : The Nazis took advantage of their own popularity, in particular among the Ukrainians active in the region, and sponsored an anti-Semitic campaign directed at rousing the Rusyns against their Jewish neighbors. More ominously, Ukrainians in Chust are said to have openly prepared "blacklists" of wealthy Jews, an activity which was consistent with the Nazi pattern of "aryanization," : or confiscation of Jewish property. Although aryanization was typically a first stage in what was to become the murder process, Carpatho-Ukraine was too short-lived to be further involved. Hungarian troops crossed the border and occupied the entire region in March 1939, after which it was renamed Carpathia (Hungarian: Karpatalja) . : : Ihor:What this author "carefully omits" is that soldiers of Karpatska Ukrayina fought Nazis successfully for three days, which was itself an act of heroism. Try to compare: professional army and 18-year olds who can't use weapons properly with old people who don't have enough strength to do it. : : RE: For those young people, I am sorry. : Ihor: And I am also proud. : RE: Proud of what? Proud of the Nazi bastard politicians who brainwashed these young kids and let them kill. : : However, the whole Zaporizska Sich was implanted from Ukraine (Galicia, Podolia) by Ukrainian immigrants. : "The whole Zaporiz'ka Sich"? I don't quite follow you. : RE: Exported to Subcarpathia by immigrants from Ukraine. Czechoslovak republic was too generous to Ukrainian immigrants. : : That was exported aggression by fanatic Ukrainian nationalists from Ukraine to Subcarpathia. Sort of Granada events created by Fidel Castro's communist mercenaries. The Sich had no popular support among Subcarpathian Rusyns : The Sich? : RE: Yes, the Sich. It was organized by nationalistic immigrants from Ukraine and therefore, it was very short-lived. : No, it was very short-lived because it was destroyed by Hungarians. : RE: If it had a popular support from Rusyns, it would last longer and not for three days. Carpathian Mountains are very good for partisan resistance and there was none. : : The vast majority of people in Subcarpathia wanted back the Masaryk's regime of the first Czechoslovak republic. : Ihor: Can you tell me how you know what people wanted? I'm very interested. : RE: See the board - Stalin's annexation of Subcarpathia. : : Mnsg. Avhustyn Voloshin was president 18 hrs and therefore, it is easy to make him a martyr. There is no reason to think that under those conditions ( with Hitler's support) his fate would be different than was Mnsg. Tiso of Slovakia = A Nazi War Criminal. : Hitler's support? Voloshyn had Hitler's support? Quite rediculous. : RE: If he (Voloshyn) had Hitler's support than his fate would be the same as Mnsg.Tiso. : Why, then, loyal to Germany Hungarians fought his army? : RE: You misunderstood my statements. Because it is too small piece of land (Subcarpathia), Hitler was not interested to make even smaller vassal states than Slovakia. : : : : See the number of immigrants from the West Ukraine who provided misleading and deceptive information to the US immigration authorities about their participation as guards in Nazi concentration camps. There is no Rusyn among them from Subcarpathia! : : : Ihor: Joe, you have no facts, and without them I don't want to discuss this matter with a blinded lunatic like you are, sorry if it's a bit harsh. : : : RE: A blinded lunatic is you because you do not want to know even about those Nazi guards who were mentioned on " Brama Press Comment Board". The US Department of Justice identified over 50 (it is between 50 and 57, I am not sure about exact number) from former USSR, most of them are from Ukraine, some from Baltic Republic. You can get this information from The US Justice Department, if you are not lunatic. : : Ihor: I don't want to dig for the info, but what exactly are you trying to say? That 50 men represented all those blood thirsty Ukrainians who dreamed day and night for killing innocent Jews or what? : : RE: Fact is the high prevalence of Ukrainians. : And that proves that there was a high prevalence of fascists amongst Ukrainians? : :and it is associated with Ukrainian nationalism. : How? If for you nationalism and fascism is the same, well, Joe, you're in minority. I am, indeed, a Ukrainian nationalist, a patriot which in no way makes me a Nazi or a fascist. : RE: Nationalists are more prone to fascism (a Nazi). See the German nationalism and rise of Hitler's power. : : The rest of your words "dreamed day and etc." is crap to obscure facts. : A lot of your words can be quite rightfully called "crap", but I'm trying not to insult anyone. : : Why? Russians in Estonia don't want to leave Estonia. : : RE: See next sentence. : : : The language + other incentives (self-governing, sound economical policy, week central government, etc.). : The only state and official language in Estonia is Estonian. Their central government is also quite strong, to my understanding. : The only reason why Russians want to live there is QUALITY OF LIFE AND GOOD ECONOMIC SITUATION. Oops, shouldn't have screamed that loud:-) : RE: I am close to the same opinion with one exception that in long run, if Russia's economy improves and Estonian's will not be sufficiently sensitive to Russian' s minority it can generate problems. : : Post a Followup : Name: : E-Mail:

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