Re: Djakuju mamko, za ukrajinske z'ytja, to Ihor

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: : : : To IHOR from JOE : : : Ihor: I do not intend to dig out those books, for there are anti-Semites, racists and so on in every nation of the world (Except Jews perhaps in case of anti-Semitism). : : : RE: Of course there were among Rusyns some anti-Semites but, fortunately, it never achieved the degree as it is known in other countries, as for instance Russia, Poland, Slovakia or Ukraine. The problem was that, in Subcarpathia, Rusyns did not try to defend their Jewish fellow citizens similarly as people of Denmark. But no other European country did either. With some exceptions, majority of Rusyns did not know about the death camps (Auschwitz, Majdanek etc.). They did not know even about Thalerhoff, a forerunner of Hitler’s concentration camp near Graz (Austria). There are no precise statistics, but supposedly about 30 000 Rusyns (including 800 priests, the whole families, grant parents, children) were interned between 1914 –1918. During those years 17 000 died and the rest after the war. : : : Since you do not want to read those books, perhaps, you can read the following three paragraphs: : : Sure thing. : : : For example, Joachim Schoenfeld in his Shtetl Memoirs (1985) writes fondly of his youthful trips into the Carpathians: The Hutzuls (Ruthenian mountaineers) who were in the mountains for the entire summer tending their sheep in the poloninas ([upland] pastures) were very hospitable people, and anyone who came up to them was always welcome to find shelter in their coliba [hut], to sleep on fresh hay alongside the watra (watchfire). Whoever came to their hut was also invited to share in their meal, which consisted of mamaliga (corn bread cooked in salted water to a hard consistency) with bryndza (sheep cheese) and milk. They didn't ask for payment but were more than happy if they were rewarded with pipe tobacco, which they couldn't afford to buy. . . . The evenings were spent with the Hutzuls, listening to their tales about Dobosh (a kind of Robin Hood), and the miracles performed by the svaty Srulko, the Saint Israel, i.e. the Bal Shem Tov, whom even Dobosh revered and admired. (pp. 130-131) : : : This passage, typical of descriptions of pre-World War I Jewish-Rusyn relations, : : Ihor: No, it's typical for describing Hutsul hospitality. : : RE: Yes, from Subcarpathia. : Well, whatever. : : : is indicative of a high degree of cultural cross-fertilization (linguistic and even religious) and generally paints a portrait two peoples in harmonious symbiosis. Even the work of Gross and Cohen, which is particularly strident in its accusations against the Rusyns, refers to Jewish and Rusyn children playing together as well as the use by Rusyns of Jewish Rabbinical courts and Jewish midwives. : : Ihor: So what? You're trying to claim that all (or even majority of)Ukrainians, Poles, Russians etc. were anti-semitic and didn't let their children play with Jewish kids? : : RE: No, but I am saying that children from families of Ukranian and Polish nationalists more frequently used such expression as “Parshyvyj Zhyd”. : Only in your imagination. : : : Following the dismemberment of Czechoslovakia forced by the Nazis in October 1938, the Ukrainophiles set up (initially with the assistance of the Russophiles) the first autonomous government in Subcarpathian Rus', later calling it Carpatho- Ukraine. These developments from the new capital of Chust were alarming to the Jewish community. One memoir records that Jews were afraid to travel after hours, since "non-Jews [were] going about in the streets like drunkards, screaming dire threats against Jews and their businesses." : : Ihor: Joe, some anti-semitism exists everywhere. There are many memoirs where people of Jewish origin try to pass their personal opinions or even complete forgeries as truth (Simon Wiesenthal, for one. http://www.ukar.org/wiesen.shtml). : : RE: We're sorry, but the page you requested www.ukar.org/wiesen.shtml). could not be found. This is the response what I’ve got. : It works fine in my computer. Try main page, then click on any link with Wiesenthal's name. : : I do not know exactly what are you trying to convey, but the fact is that Simon Whisenthal did a great job in restoring the justice. : And that page exposes his forgeries. He did a great job of lying and forging. But read the page, if it doesn't load get an updated version of a browser or something, I don't know why it doesn't support Server-side html files. : : Ihor: But the truth is: although many Ukrainians (yes, those include Ukrainian Rusyns), Russians, Poles etc. did not like Jews, they would never massively massacre them. : : RE: What about the great leader Bogdan Khmelnicky and later the Ukrainian guards. : Khmelnytsky massacring Jews because they are Jews (ethnic cleansing)? Never seen the proof. Perhaps you have it? The Ukrainian guards? Here's a real surprise for you: there were even Jewish guards! : : Do you want to claim that the famous guard Ivan Hroznyj was not Ukrainian? : Huh? Ivan "Grozny" (The Terrible) was a Russian tsar. : : Nationalism enhanced the destructive nature of human beings. See Hlinkove gardy in Tiso’s Slovakia. : I heard about Nazi-made Slovakia and how the Slovak people today consider him a hero, but I don't know much else, so I won't judge neither them, nor Tiso and co. : : Ihor:Most of the people don't even care what your origin is. They didn't in those times too, no matter what Ukrainophobes try to tell us. : : RE: Let’s hope that is the case. : : : The Nazis took advantage of their own popularity, in particular among the Ukrainians active in the region, and sponsored an anti-Semitic campaign directed at rousing the Rusyns against their Jewish neighbors. More ominously, Ukrainians in Chust are said to have openly prepared "blacklists" of wealthy Jews, an activity which was consistent with the Nazi pattern of "aryanization," or confiscation of Jewish property. Although aryanization was typically a first stage in what was to become the murder process, Carpatho-Ukraine was too short-lived to be further involved. Hungarian troops crossed the border and occupied the entire region in March 1939, after which it was renamed Carpathia (Hungarian: Karpatalja) . : : Ihor:What this author "carefully omits" is that soldiers of Karpatska Ukrayina fought Nazis successfully for three days, which was itself an act of heroism. Try to compare: professional army and 18-year olds who can't use weapons properly with old people who don't have enough strength to do it. : : RE: For those young people, I am sorry. : And I am also proud. : : However, the whole Zaporizska Sich : If the above is in Ukrainian, should be Zaporizka (Zaporiz'ka). : : was implanted from Ukraine (Galicia, Podolia) by Ukrainian immigrants. : "The whole Zaporiz'ka Sich"? I don't quite follow you. : : That was exported aggression by fanatic Ukrainian nationalists from Ukraine to Subcarpathia. Sort of Granada events created by Fidel Castro’s communist mercenaries. The Sich had no popular support among Subcarpathian Rusyns : The Sich? : :and therefore, it was very short-lived. : No, it was very short-lived because it was destroyed by Hungarians. : : The vast majority of people in Subcarpathia wanted back the Masaryk’s regime of the first Czechoslovak republic. : Can you tell me how you know what people wanted? I'm very interested. : : Mnsg. Avhustyn Voloshin was president 18 hrs and therefore, it is easy to make him a martyr. There is no reason to think that under those conditions (Hitler’s support) his fate would be different than was Mnsg. Tiso of Slovakia = A Nazi War Criminal. : Hitler's support? Voloshyn had Hitler's support? Quite rediculous. Why, then, loyal to Germany Hungarians fought his army? : : : : See the number of immigrants from the West Ukraine who provided misleading and deceptive information to the US immigration authorities about their participation as guards in Nazi concentration camps. There is no Rusyn among them from Subcarpathia! : : : Ihor: Joe, you have no facts, and without them I don't want to discuss this matter with a blinded lunatic like you are, sorry if it's a bit harsh. : : : RE: A blinded lunatic is you because you do not want to know even about those Nazi guards who were mentioned on “ Brama Press Comment Board”. The US Department of Justice identified over 50 (it is between 50 and 57, I am not sure about exact number) from former USSR, most of them are from Ukraine, some from Baltic Republic. You can get this information from The US Justice Department, if you are not lunatic. : : Ihor: I don't want to dig for the info, but what exactly are you trying to say? That 50 men represented all those blood thirsty Ukrainians who dreamed day and night for killing innocent Jews or what? : : RE: Fact is the high prevalence of Ukrainians : And that proves that there was a high prevalence of fascists amongst Ukrainians? : :and it is associated with Ukrainian nationalism. : How? If for you nationalism and fascism is the same, well, Joe, you're in minority. I am, indeed, a Ukrainian nationalist, a patriot which in no way makes me a Nazi or a fascist. : : The rest of your words “dreamed day and etc.” is crap to obscure facts. : A lot of your words can be quite rightfully called "crap", but I'm trying not to insult anyone. : : : : As previously pointed out, these gays are great followers of Academician Lysenko. : : : Ihor: Here you meant guys, right? : : : RE: No, I mean gays in classical sense. You do not remember my story from Lvov. Here it is “ As a matter of fact, I pinned the trident on my chest during my visit of Lviv and the RUCH guys glancing it became keenly exuberant, alive and highly spirited within a few seconds. Simply, they turned into gays in absence of any possibility for sexual activities. “ Exactly the same happened when I met Myshanych and Mushinka. I do not show myself to them without the trident on my chest. Well, I can understand it that gay can have only one meaning in our over-sexualized world. : : Joe, you know, whatever, I have like 4 minutes left after which I have to leave, so your fantasies will not be commented, sorry. : : RE: You could leave earlier. : Or there could be no comment. : : There is no need to be sorry.: : Yeah, btw I was exactly 32 seconds late to work because of it :-)) : : : Ihor: I know that surely it's four language policy isn't a major factor in it's development. Take France, for example. Do they have the same policy regarding Bretonians? : : : RE: Wrong example. With one language policy, namely German, the French speaking Swiss would be part of France and not Switzerland. : : Why? Russians in Estonia don't want to leave Estonia. : : RE: See next sentence. : : : The language + other incentives (self-governing, sound economical policy, week central government, etc.). : The only state and official language in Estonia is Estonian. Their central government is also quite strong, to my understanding. The only reason why Russians want to live there is QUALITY OF LIFE AND GOOD ECONOMIC SITUATION. Oops, shouldn't have screamed that loud:-)

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