Re: Are Ukrainians Tatars? Q: to Hanya

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Posted by hanya on October 16, 1999 at 12:31:44:

In Reply to: Re: Are Ukrainians Tatars? Q: to Hanya posted by Mikle on October 15, 1999 at 21:41:05:

: :Thanks for your illuminating response.

You're welcome. :)

:What I gathered from your brief history lesson is that Kyievan Rus was a common state for current Russians and Ukrainians.

I don't see where that was ever stated. All I corrected was your misstated name "Kyjev's Russia."

: The latter ones remained in Kyievan Rus territory while Moscovy corrupted by power of Khans (the Golden Horde)later developed into Russian state.

You'd have to read a few history books to find out where the Muscovites came from.

: When did the word Russia emerge and when did the word Ukraine begin to be used?

As I recall, the name Russia emerged sometime during the 17th century. Until then it was Muscovy. In fact, if you read the quote from Subtelny below, you will notice that the Treaty of Pereiaslav, which was signed in 1654, was a treaty with the tsar of Muscovy, not Russia.

The word Ukraine, from what I gather, was first used to describe the land we know as Ukraine sometime during the 11th century. The name was used officially, for example, in the 17th century on maps - there is a reproduction of a 17th century Polish map of "Ukraina" in the English language single volume of Hrushevsky. Unfortunately, I don't have any historical maps on hand for any earlier periods showing the name Ukraina. This is not to suggest that those lands were not called "Ukraina" earlier thatn the 17th century - I just don't happen to have a historical atlas nearby.

: Of course, I did not mean at all that the Russians and Ukrainians are related genetically to Tatars. Sequencing of the human genome is ongoing and it is questionable whether it can tell something about different ethnic groups. However, what do you mean "...an argument that might be made."? Are you saying that Russians were more corrupted by Khans than Ukrainians?

Again, check your history books to see exactly where the Golden Horde settled and for how long. But you really should look into the name "Russian" - as far as I know, they were Muscovites.

: I have two additional questions and would appreciate your response, namely:(a) Wasn't it the leader of the emerging Ukrainian state Boghdan Khmelnickij who united Ukraine with Russia?

According to Subtelny, the Treaty of Peresiaslav is a matter of interpretation that is currently being debated:

On January 18, 1654, Khmelnytsky signed a unitlateral oath of loyalty to the tsar of Muscovy (now Russia). Khmelnytsky expected the oath to be bilateral, with the Ukrainians swearing loyalty to the tsar and the latter promising to protect them from the Poles and to respect their rights and priviledges. But Buturlin [Muscovite delegate] refused to swear in the name of his monarch, arguing that the tsar, unlike the Polish king, was an absolute ruler and that it was below his dignity to take an oath to his subjects. ...Fearful of losing the tsar's aid, [Khmelnytsky] agreed [to the terms].

"Because of the conflicts that later developed between Russians and Ukrainians, the interpretation of the [Pereyaslav] treaty that brought their two countries together has been the subject of frequent debate among scholars. The issue is complicated by the fact that the original documents were lost and only inaccurate copies and translations have survived. Moreover, the Russian archivist Petr Shafranov has argued that even these copies were falsified by the tsar's scribes.

"[Several] major interpretations of the Pereiaslav Agreement have been proposed. (1) According to the Russian legal historian Vasilii Sergeevich (d. 1910), the 1654 agreement was a personal union between Muscovy and Ukraine, whereby the two parties shared the same sovereign but retained separate governments. (2) Another specialist in Russian law, Nikolai Diakonov (d. 1919), argued that by accepting "personal subjugation" to the tsar, the Ukrainians unconditionally agreed to the incorporation of their land into the Muscovite state and the agreement was therefore a real union. (3) Historians, such as the Russian Venedikt Miakotin and the Ukrainian Mykhailo Hrushevsky, believed that the Pereiaslav Agreement was a form of vassalage in which the more powerful party (the tsar) agreed to protect the weaker party (the Ukrainians) on condition that he not interfere in their internal affairs and that the Ukrainians provide him with tribute, military assistance, as well as other considerations. (4) Another Ukrainian historian, Viacheslav Lypynsky, proposed that the 1654 agreement was nothing more than a temporary military alliance between Moscow and the Ukrainians."

Ukraine - A History, Orest Subtelny, U of Toronto Press, pp 134-5.

: (b)Isn't the Ukrainian National Anthem states that "...we brothers are of Cossacks kin."? Thanks again for responding to my questions. Mikle

Shche Ne Vmerla Ukraina (Ukraine is not yet dead)

Ukraine is not yet dead, nor its glory nor freedom
Fate shall yet smile upon us, brother-Ukrainians.
Our enemies shall die, as the dew in the sun,
And we too, brothers, in our turn shall begin to live.

Body and soul we will lay down for our freedom
And we will show that we, brothers, are of the Kozak stock.

We will stand, brothers, all together for freedom, from the Sian to the Don,
We will not permit anyone to govern in our native land.
The Black Sea will yet smile, grandfather Dnipro will rejoice,
Fortune will yet ripen in our Ukraine.

And courage, and honest work will yet prove,
The loud song of freedom will yet be spread throughout Ukraine.
It will be reflected [it will echo] beyond the Karpaty, it will be heard through the steppes,
Ukraine's glory will arise among nations.

An unfortunate title for a national anthem, but the song itself is certainly descriptive of the struggles the country has undergone to finally achieve its freedom. The anthem was written in 1863 by Pavlo Chubynsky, and adopted as the national anthem of Ukraine in 1917 during its first, albeit short-lived, existence as a free state. In 1863, when it was written, most of the territory of Ukraine was in the Russian Empire, so it would seem that freedom was desired from the Russian yoke. The reference to Kozaks is with respect to their characterization as fiercely courageous and independent. I'm not sure what you were trying to suggest by bringing it up.

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: : :Thanks for your illuminating response. : You're welcome. :) : :What I gathered from your brief history lesson is that Kyievan Rus was a common state for current Russians and Ukrainians. : I don't see where that was ever stated. All I corrected was your misstated name "Kyjev's Russia." : : The latter ones remained in Kyievan Rus territory while Moscovy corrupted by power of Khans (the Golden Horde)later developed into Russian state. : You'd have to read a few history books to find out where the Muscovites came from. : : When did the word Russia emerge and when did the word Ukraine begin to be used? : As I recall, the name Russia emerged sometime during the 17th century. Until then it was Muscovy. In fact, if you read the quote from Subtelny below, you will notice that the Treaty of Pereiaslav, which was signed in 1654, was a treaty with the tsar of Muscovy, not Russia. : The word Ukraine, from what I gather, was first used to describe the land we know as Ukraine sometime during the 11th century. The name was used officially, for example, in the 17th century on maps - there is a reproduction of a 17th century Polish map of "Ukraina" in the English language single volume of Hrushevsky. Unfortunately, I don't have any historical maps on hand for any earlier periods showing the name Ukraina. This is not to suggest that those lands were not called "Ukraina" earlier thatn the 17th century - I just don't happen to have a historical atlas nearby. : : Of course, I did not mean at all that the Russians and Ukrainians are related genetically to Tatars. Sequencing of the human genome is ongoing and it is questionable whether it can tell something about different ethnic groups. However, what do you mean "...an argument that might be made."? Are you saying that Russians were more corrupted by Khans than Ukrainians? : Again, check your history books to see exactly where the Golden Horde settled and for how long. But you really should look into the name "Russian" - as far as I know, they were Muscovites. : : I have two additional questions and would appreciate your response, namely:(a) Wasn't it the leader of the emerging Ukrainian state Boghdan Khmelnickij who united Ukraine with Russia? : According to Subtelny, the Treaty of Peresiaslav is a matter of interpretation that is currently being debated: : <dl><dd> : On January 18, 1654, Khmelnytsky signed a unitlateral oath of loyalty to the tsar of Muscovy (now Russia). Khmelnytsky expected the oath to be bilateral, with the Ukrainians swearing loyalty to the tsar and the latter promising to protect them from the Poles and to respect their rights and priviledges. But Buturlin [Muscovite delegate] refused to swear in the name of his monarch, arguing that the tsar, unlike the Polish king, was an absolute ruler and that it was below his dignity to take an oath to his subjects. ...Fearful of losing the tsar's aid, [Khmelnytsky] agreed [to the terms]. : "Because of the conflicts that later developed between Russians and Ukrainians, the interpretation of the [Pereyaslav] treaty that brought their two countries together has been the subject of frequent debate among scholars. The issue is complicated by the fact that the original documents were lost and only inaccurate copies and translations have survived. Moreover, the Russian archivist Petr Shafranov has argued that even these copies were falsified by the tsar's scribes. : "[Several] major interpretations of the Pereiaslav Agreement have been proposed. (1) According to the Russian legal historian Vasilii Sergeevich (d. 1910), the 1654 agreement was a personal union between Muscovy and Ukraine, whereby the two parties shared the same sovereign but retained separate governments. (2) Another specialist in Russian law, Nikolai Diakonov (d. 1919), argued that by accepting "personal subjugation" to the tsar, the Ukrainians unconditionally agreed to the incorporation of their land into the Muscovite state and the agreement was therefore a real union. (3) Historians, such as the Russian Venedikt Miakotin and the Ukrainian Mykhailo Hrushevsky, believed that the Pereiaslav Agreement was a form of vassalage in which the more powerful party (the tsar) agreed to protect the weaker party (the Ukrainians) on condition that he not interfere in their internal affairs and that the Ukrainians provide him with tribute, military assistance, as well as other considerations. (4) Another Ukrainian historian, Viacheslav Lypynsky, proposed that the 1654 agreement was nothing more than a temporary military alliance between Moscow and the Ukrainians." : <u>Ukraine - A History</u>, Orest Subtelny, U of Toronto Press, pp 134-5. : </dd ></dl> : : (b)Isn't the Ukrainian National Anthem states that "...we brothers are of Cossacks kin."? Thanks again for responding to my questions. Mikle : Shche Ne Vmerla Ukraina (Ukraine is not yet dead) : <dl><dd> : Ukraine is not yet dead, nor its glory nor freedom : Fate shall yet smile upon us, brother-Ukrainians. : Our enemies shall die, as the dew in the sun, : And we too, brothers, in our turn shall begin to live. : Body and soul we will lay down for our freedom : And we will show that we, brothers, are of the Kozak stock. : We will stand, brothers, all together for freedom, from the Sian to the Don, : We will not permit anyone to govern in our native land. : The Black Sea will yet smile, grandfather Dnipro will rejoice, : Fortune will yet ripen in our Ukraine. : And courage, and honest work will yet prove, : The loud song of freedom will yet be spread throughout Ukraine. : It will be reflected [it will echo] beyond the Karpaty, it will be heard through the steppes, : Ukraine's glory will arise among nations. : </dd ></dl> : An unfortunate title for a national anthem, but the song itself is certainly descriptive of the struggles the country has undergone to finally achieve its freedom. The anthem was written in 1863 by Pavlo Chubynsky, and adopted as the national anthem of Ukraine in 1917 during its first, albeit short-lived, existence as a free state. In 1863, when it was written, most of the territory of Ukraine was in the Russian Empire, so it would seem that freedom was desired from the Russian yoke. The reference to Kozaks is with respect to their characterization as fiercely courageous and independent. I'm not sure what you were trying to suggest by bringing it up.

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