Posted by Observer 27/38 on February 05, 2002 at 11:06:02:
In Reply to: Re: Ukrainian symbol of what? posted by Rusyn on February 04, 2002 at 21:09:40:
Stupidity has nothing to do with the ethnic issues. Stupidity is always personal - and your peresonal stylistic ignorance has no relation to neither Rusyn nor Ukrainian nationalism. Your Carpathian bear (which, in fact, is a brown bear or Ursus arctos Linneaus, scientifically speaking) in California is one of the elements of your personal stupidity, whicht does not positively contribute to the Rusyn cause, the same way as your hatred towards Ukraine does not contribute to your writing success here, on Brama.
:However, it is also stupid to avoid the main issues by picking on stylistic errors. This shows how open minded you are and the rest of your kind of Ukrainian nationalists.
: : If you said something stupid, like your Carpatina bear as a symbol of California, it does not make you any smarter by attacking those who told you that you wrote quite a stupid thing.
: : : =Vietnam=Congo=Morocco etc.
: : : Yes, you are right! It was impossible to figure out that a bear as a symbol of Subcarpathian Rus and California cannot have exactly the same identity and there should be differences between Carpathian and Californian bears. Obviously, this requires having a Ukrainian brain to think that the same bear is in Carpathian Mounties and in California. This conversion into identical species was capable to do one person only in the human history, namely the great Ukrainian scientist Academician Lysenko. He has been the greatest pride of Ukrainian science and the greatest crook in history of the science in XXth century.
: : : You have very admirable totalitarian contra-arguments to my statements " jak mackali maly." Nebore Ukrajinche tsari y komisary mozog ty zjily.
: : : : No moreno less! Please read what these smart people wrote! Unbelievable!
: : : : "Subcarpathian Rus has an emblem a Carpathian bear. The only state that have the same symbol is California."
: : : :
: : : : : : There is no real popular support for a seperatist Rusyn state as most "Rusyn" (all Ukrainians living in not only in Ukraine but in Slovakia and Poland) consider themselves to be Ukrainian.
: : : : : >>>>
: : : : : RE:: In Slovakia, the result from the Census 2001 shows the following: 54 000 citizens of Slovakia claimed their first language (mother's tongue) RUSYN NOT UKRAINIAN and 24 300 claimed RUSYN NATIONALITY, while only 10 600 claimed Ukrainian nationality. Before 1989, during communistic regime, there were officially over 45 000 Ukrainians in Slovakia (Czechoslovakia) who claimed Ukrainian nationality. Why Ukrainians disappeared? Of course, Rusyns in Slovakia are brainwashed but in flourishing Ukrainian democracy they have all rights to express themselves freely.
: : : : : >>>
: : : : : : : : The European approach is for Ukraine to remain whole.
: : : : : : : ::: Agree. If Rusyns remain Rusyns and the affairs of this part of Ukraine is solved mainly in Uzhhorod and not in Kyiv as it is currently practiced. Why should this development be incompatible with Ukraine as a whole and the EU policy in particular? Just the opposite is taking place in Europe, the regionalisation. Take a look at the map. Whether you like it or not Uzhhorod and Mukachevo will have economically in the near future far more common ties with Koshice and Debrecen than with Lviv or Ternopilj. See the current economical development of Bratislava (Slovakia) and Vienna (Austria) or Prague (CZR) and Dresden (GBR) or Munich.
: : : : : : :
: : : : : : : After the collapse of the Austro-Hungarian Empire in 1918, most of the Carpatho-Ukrainian territory came under Czechoslovakian administration.
: : : : : : : :::The term "Carpatho-Ukraine" was not in existence at that time. The region was called Subcarpathian Rus. Similarly, as Czechs and Slovaks, representatives of a half million of Rusyn-Americans, particularly Mr. G. Zsatkovich, subsequently the first governor of Subcarpathian Rus, together with representatives of Czechs (Mr. T.G. Masaryk, the first president of Czechoslovakia) and Slovaks (Mr. Stefanik) participated in the formation of democratic Czechoslovakia which was composed of Bohemia, Moravia, Slovakia and Subcarpathian Rus. In May 1919, Rusyns joined freely the Czechs and Slovaks and the Rusyn issue had reached the international political forum, so that “the fullest degree of self-government” for “Ruthene territory south of the Carpathians” was guaranteed by two international treaties at the Paris Peace Conference (St.Germain-en-Laye, September 10, 1919, and Trianon June 4, 1920) and by Czechoslovak constitution (February 29, 1920).
: : : : : : : Under Czechoslovakia, the Ukrainian population achieved some degree of national liberalization. On 20 March 1920 a provincial flag of blue over yellow was adopted. in 1938, Hungary started occupying the province step by step. Despite the Hungarian occupation (which lasted until the end of World War II), the provincial assembly proclaimed the territory independent as Carpatho-Ukraine on 15 March 1939. The national flag of Carpatho-Ukraine was also blue over yellow. The goal of Carpatho-Ukraine was to some day unite with the rest of Ukraine if ever Ukraine became free again. After World War II, Carpatho-Ukraine was incorporated into Ukraine.
: : : : : : : ::: Finally in late 1938, actual autonomy was granted to Subcarpathian Rus and only later was renamed to Carpatho-Ukraine. Unfortunately, the provisions of the infamous Munich Pact included the request for autonomy as well so that Hitler could use it not only for creation of small satellite states, as for instance Tiso’s natzified Slovakia, but also Carpatho-Ukraine. The Hitler’s plan was to use Carpatho-Ukraine as Piemont to get the whole Ukraine under his control. Carpatho-Ukraine was created in Berlin and not in Uzhhorod. This development had nothing in common with aspiration of people in Subcarpathia ( Rusyns, Hungarians, Jews, Romanians etc.) The only strong supporters for the Carpatho-Ukraine were Ukranian nationalists, emigrants from Galicia. Unfortunately, many of them had fascist’s mentality and they were perceived as foreigners. That’s why Rusyns were not fighting for Carpatho-Ukraine. Mainly Rusyns up to 75% constituted the Czechoslovak Army stationed in Buzuluk (USSR) during the war. Rusyns were fighting Hitler’s Germany and dying for both, democratic Czechoslovakia and autonomous Subcarpathian Rus, and NOT for Carpatho-Ukraine.
: : : : : : : During the twenty years of Czechoslovak rules, Rusyns lived in a territory that was Rusyn in name, that had its own Rusyn schools, and had all basic elements of self-rule, including a governor that was elected by people of Subcarpathia (and not named by president as it is in Ukraine), an elected diet, a national anthem (it has nothing in common with “Shche ne vmerla Ukrajina”), and a national theatre.
: : : : : : : In 1919, 70% of Rusyns were illiterate. In 1939, only 30% of Rusyns were illiterate. In Subcarpathia, during the Czechoslovak regime, far more progress was made in building infrastructure than during Soviet and Ukrainian regimes combined together.
: : : : : : : The color of the flag blue and yellow is a very small justification to make Rusyns into Ukrainians. Take in consideration the flags of China, Kampuchea, Turkey, Vietnam,
: : : : : : : Congo, Morocco and Tunisia. All of them have the red color and differences are in emblems.
: : : : : : : Subcarpathian Rus has an emblem a Carpathian bear. The only state that have the same symbol is California.
: : : : : : : Unfortunately Ukraine was overtaken by Russia under the guise of “Soviet Union”. Now Ukraine is free, but still struggling to remain free against continued Russian cultural and economic aggression.
: : : : : : : ::: Unfortunately for Rusyns that the Ukrainians are not Czechs who supported the Slovaks for centuries. And it is good for both, Czechs and Slovaks that the latter one is on the way of becoming a modern European nation. Ukraine cannot gain anything by ignoring Rusyns in their aspiration of achieving the same rights as other minorities within the EU.