[aaus-list] Fwd: Russian "reversionism?" Russia'sarchivist disputes Ukraine Famine/Holomodor was genocide ... and more.

Fri Mar 6 11:17:39 EST 2009

Re: the "obvious rejoinder," it is answered by researcher Ludmyla
Hrynevych, who points out that the "relief measures" were much smaller
in amount of food sent into Ukraine than the amount of food taken out at
the same time. The post-famine relief measures naturally sought to patch
up Soviet agriculture once the political and demographic purposes of the
famine had been achieved.
Alex Marshall seems to be locked in a Cold War dichotomy himself: of
Russia and the West. I cannot comment on "Western" historiography, but
we should pay more attention to current Ukrainian historiography, such
as the work of Kulchytsky and others on the famine, which can hardly be
characterized as locked in the Cold War era. I suspect it doesn't
compare badly with Russian historiography, some of which seems intent on
supporting the position of the Russian government.

Andrew Sorokowski 

________________________________

From: aaus-list-bounces at ukrainianstudies.org
[mailto:aaus-list-bounces at ukrainianstudies.org] On Behalf Of Roman D.
Hryciw
Sent: Friday, March 06, 2009 10:55 AM
To: Natalia Pylypiuk; aaus
Subject: Re: [aaus-list] Fwd: Russian "reversionism?" Russia'sarchivist
disputes Ukraine Famine/Holomodor was genocide ... and more.

Trying to be scientific and objective is he? If so, I would love to see
the source material used to make the claim that "they want to outdo the
Holocaust".
Now that's something that Mr. Marshall should be challenged to prove, -
not the figures themselves (which may never get fully resolved), but the
claim that reputable historians are slanting numbers in order to
out-Holocaust the Holocaust.

Roman Hryciw 

^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
Roman D. Hryciw, PhD
Professor and Associate Chair
Dept.of Civil & Environmental Engineering
University of Michigan 
2340 GG Brown Building
2350 Hayward St.
Ann Arbor, MI  48109-2125
USA

(734) 763-5491 (o)
(734) 764-4292 (f)
(734) 972-6009 (c)
romanh at umich.edu

At 07:03 AM 3/6/2009, Natalia Pylypiuk wrote:

	Colleagues,
	With apologies for double postings, I forward a thread that has
appeared on H-Russia.
	Any comments on this exchange?
	Regards,
	N. Pylypiuk (U of Alberta)

	Begin forwarded message:

		From: Dave Pretty <prettyd at WINTHROP.EDU>
		Date: March 6, 2009 4:39:28 AM MST (CA)
		To: H-RUSSIA at H-NET.MSU.EDU
		Subject: Re: Russian "reversionism?"  Russia's archivist
disputes Ukraine Famine/Holomodor was genocide ... and more.
		Reply-To: H-Net Russian History list
<H-RUSSIA at H-NET.MSU.EDU >

		Date: Fri, 6 Mar 2009 09:13:26 +0000 (GMT)
		From: ALEX MARSHALL < alex.marshall3 at btopenworld.com
<mailto:alex.marshall3 at btopenworld.com> >

		3.5 million dead in the Ukraine is now generally
recognised to be far closer to the mark than 6-10 million. The higher
figures usually refer to famine across the Soviet Union as a whole at
that time (Kazakhstan, North Caucasus). Certain historians go for the
higher figure in regard to the Ukraine alone because they want to outdo
the Holocaust. The charge of genocide has been fairly thoroughly
disproved for a long time now-I refer you to the work of Stephen
Wheatcroft, Wheatcroft and R W Davies, and the excellent summary by
Hiroaki Kuromiya in volume 60 issue 4 of Europe-Asia Studies, 2008. The
most obvious rejoinder is that the Soviet government did eventually
implement famine relief measures, both at the time and again in 1935-6,
see-I. E. Zelenin, Stalinskaia 'revoliutsiia sverkhu' posle 'velikogo
pereloma' Moscow 2006

		I find the current situation deeply ironic. Russian
historiography, with certain obvious execptions, is generally moving in
the right direction-towards an attempt at abstract truth, with many
contested interpretations. A lot of Western historiography by contrast
remains locked in the Cold War era, where Ann Applebaum, Abdurrakhman
Avtorkhanov and Robert Conquest remain the last word on a subject.

		Alex Marshall

		________________________________
		From: Dave Pretty <prettyd at WINTHROP.EDU>
		To: H-RUSSIA at H-NET.MSU.EDU
		Sent: Wednesday, 4 March, 2009 10:35:11 PM
		Subject: Russian "reversionism?" Russia's archivist
disputes Ukraine Famine/Holomodor was genocide ... and more.

		  Date:     Wed, 25 Feb 2009 19:30:30 -0800 (PST)
		From:     Lou Coatney <cl52 at yahoo.com>

		In the Guardian newspaper's Comment Is Free (CIF)
section last December
		was the article by Vladimir Putin's personal spokesman
Dmitry Peskov

		"It is ludicrous to compare modern Russia with the old
Soviet
		Union:  We are a fully integrated part of the global
economy, and
		we respect our neighbours' borders, says Dmitry Peskov"
at

http://www.guardian.co.uk/commentisfree/2008/dec/17/russia-not-soviet-un
ion-putin 

		(His previous CIF column had decried the London-based
Russian oligarch
		Berezovsky's publicly proclaimed intent to overthrow the
Russian
		government by violent means, if necessary.)

		Note my two (uncensored) responses to Peskov, asking why
if that is
		true was one Aleksandr Sabov in the official Russian
Gazette newspaper
		disputing the authenticity of the NKVD order authorizing
the execution
		of thousands of Polish officers, cadets, intelligentsia
at Katyn and
		elsewhere in early 1940 ... and would Putin and Medvedev
make a public
		statement revalidating the NKVD's guilt for the crime?

		Now, we have another historical offensive, regarding the
intent and extent of the Ukraine Famine -- the Holomodor:

		"Russia:  Famine that killed millions not genocide," by
Steve Gutterman, Associated Press

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20090225/ap_on_re_eu/eu_russia_great_famine/p
rint 

		Archivist Kozlov is claiming that the mass murder was
class- -- not
		nationality- -- oriented (against kulaks, the
independent farmers,
		throughout the Soviet Union) and that the number of
deaths is greatly
		exaggerated.

		My research experience with the Katyn Massacre showed
that, if
		anything, the number of the NKVD's victims were
typically
		underestimated -- vastly -- and I'll go with the Library
of Congress's
		information page on the Ukraine Famine, with its
estimate of 6-7
		million dead, at

		http://www.loc.gov/exhibits/archives/ukra.html

		I am confident that Librarian of Congress James
Billington would not have allowed an irresponsible estimate.

		And as to whether or not the Holomodor qualifies as
genocide, if the
		Ukrainians suffered a disproportionate number of victims
as opposed to
		the rest of the Soviet Union, an empirical conclusion of
"genocide"
		could stand.

		If this historical "reversionism" -- regarding
responsibility for Katyn
		and the intent and extent of the Holomodor -- is to be a
growing trend
		and inherent part of Russia's resurgence, the West is in
for trouble
		and not just academically ... not that our
"neoconservative"
		governments haven't done everything possible to provoke
the Russians
		the past 10 years.

		What are other historians' opinions (especially from
Russia) of these recent historigraphical developments?

		Lou Coatney, Macomb Illinois, http://LCoat.tripod.com
<http://lcoat.tripod.com/>  (Free mililitary/naval history boardgames,
etc.)

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