[aaus-list] "Cult of corruption"... Why does this happeninAmerica? What should Ukraine learn from this?

[Max Pyziur]

On Sun, 19 Oct 2008, Kravchuk, Bob wrote:

> Max:
>
> You are wrong. Bush is not guilty of any impeachable offense that any 
> reasonably just society would condemn him for.  Free societies do not

> routinely impeach leaders over differences in policy. And, yes, 230

Sorry, but these aren't just some innocuous policies. Several hundred 
people have died, standards of living have collapsed, and vultures have 
benefitted. I am not wrong and I don't know what it makes you - naive, to 
be generous, perhaps.

> years 
> is emphatically not a ling time. Open societies are "learning systems;" 
> that is, they continuously reinvent and renew themselves.

So the logical conclusion of what you say is that the Japanese-Americans 
should be grateful because it only took forty-six years for the receipt of 
some sort of ilformed justice and African-Americans will get theirs 
eventually because "free" and "open societies" do work in theory; 
Ukrainians should expect to wait longer, perhaps an eternity, because 
their's were due to autocratic and totalitarian regimes.

> You should not be so quick to condemn what you do not understand. You 
> are permitting your political views to cloud your analytical judgment.

My views are based on evidence, not some untested over-idealized and naive 
notions of "free" and "open," generating a dense "tuman."

> -Robert Kravchuk

Max Pyziur
pyz at brama.com

> ________________________________
>
> From: aaus-list-bounces at ukrainianstudies.org on behalf of Max Pyziur
> Sent: Sun 10/19/2008 9:37 AM
> To: aaus-list at ukrainianstudies.org
> Cc: ukrainians
> Subject: RE: [aaus-list] "Cult of corruption"... Why does this happeninAmerica? What should Ukraine learn from this?
>
>
>
> On Thu, 16 Oct 2008, Kravchuk, Bob wrote:
>
>> Dear Vadim:
>>
>> This happens in America beacuse the Hobbesian decsription of the human
>> condition is the same worldwide. That is,  there are scoundrels
>> everywhere, and they need to be pursued, and locked away. The lesson
>> that Ukraine will learn from this is that free societies like America's
>> will root out this cancer. Ukrainian political institutions are still
>   ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
>
> Then why hasn't George Bush been impeached? And why haven't any of the
> members of his administration been tried for treason?
>
> It's clearly false to assume that "free societies" deterministically are
> just. In the United States you had the slaves freed in the mid-19th
> century, yet it took at least another hundred years before there was
> any clear action against Jim Crow legislation. And then how
> long before it was implemented? And with what consequences?
>
> Look at what happened to several hundred thousand  west coast
> Japanese-Americans after the bombing of Pearl Harbor. All property
> - as in homes and land - was confiscated and never returned, and people
> were sent to concentration camps. The only restitution that they received
> was a judgement in the early 1980s to distribute ~$22k per person to
> settle any and all claims.
>
> Much as there has been no restitution for injustices such as the
> deportations to Central Asia and appropriations of property in the
> mid-1940s to Ukrainians and other peoples, among other things, there have
> been no reparations to the descendants of African-American slaves. There
> is at least one organization working in this direction: National Coalition
> Of Blacks for Reparations in America - http://www.ncobra.org/mission.htm
>
> At least, the Ostarbeiters, including several hundred thousand Ukrainians,
> got something - $2-3 thousand per head - from the governments of Germany
> and Austria, courtesy of lawsuit that was initiated in the United States.
>
>
>> too nascent to do so effectively.
>
> I guess 230 years is still a little young.
>
>> -Robert Kravchuk
>
> Max Pyziur
> pyz at brama.com
>
>
>
>> ________________________________
>>
>> From: aaus-list-bounces at ukrainianstudies.org on behalf of Vadim
>> Sent: Tue 10/14/2008 11:22 PM
>> To: aaus; ukrainians
>> Subject: [aaus-list] "Cult of corruption"... Why does this happen inAmerica? What should Ukraine learn from this?
>>
>>
>>
>> http://www.cnn.com/2008/US/10/14/oil.whistleblower/index.html
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