[aaus-list] AP Photos: Civilians who Saakashvili bombed with"Hailstorm"

[Sorokowski, Andrew (ENRD)]

Vadim,
Thank you for tying this in with Ukraine.  
I am sure others will want to discuss the points you raise.
My point is that whatever the demerits of Mr. S, Ukrainians have reason
to be concerned more generally with the fate of Georgia, a country which
is being destabilized because Russia apparently considers any neighbor
that it cannot control to be a threat. This is a dangerous kind of state
paranoia, and one with obvious implications for Ukraine.
Should Ukraine condemn all military action, even if it is defensive? It
seems that military aggression upon a sovereign state (and no, South
Ossetia is not a sovereign state) is what needs to be condemned. Of
course one should condemn immoral tactics like "hailstorms," but that
does not justify military intervention by an interested party: the
appropriate response in case of massive crimes against humanity would be
intervention by UN troops. 
I agree that resisting Russia militarily would fan even more Russian
hysteria. No one in his right mind is suggesting military action against
Russia. What is being suggested, I think rightly, is UN intervention in
South Ossetia, combined with an array of diplomatic and economic
sanctions that will make Russia think twice before trying the same
tricks with Ukraine. It does not take much imagination to picture
Russian troops and planes rushing into a separatist Crimea to "protect"
Sevastopol and ethnic Russian victims of (provoked) atrocities by "rabid
Ukrainian nationalists" egged on by an allegedly corrupt and
anti-democratic leader. 

Andrew

-----Original Message-----
From: Vadim [mailto:solar75wind at gmail.com] 
Sent: Monday, August 11, 2008 1:54 PM
To: Sorokowski, Andrew (ENRD)
Cc: oles at berezhny.net; aaus
Subject: Re: [aaus-list] AP Photos: Civilians who Saakashvili bombed
with"Hailstorm"

Andrew,

I am not talking about a stream of selected facts. There is a single
fact -- "Hailstorm" systems without any warning to civilians -- that
suddenly undermines 95% of everything that's said about the Ossetian
conflict.

There is nothing to weave. On the contrary, this fact cannot be made
simpler.

The implications for Ukraine is that the blind, unconditional support
of Saakashvili will be highly damaging, destabilizing to Ukraine and
the entire region. Russians have a strong point and it is very
important to recognize that. Saakashvili gave pro-Russian forces in
Ukraine a very fertile ground for provocations -- read what Ukrainian
communists are now saying. This is VERY dangerous for Ukraine. The
only option for Ukraine that can find respect in Ukraine, Georgia AND
Russia is to act from a moral high ground and condemn any military
action from any side.

Supporting military action can only create more "pretext designed to
fan Russian great-power nationalism at home and to expand Russia's
power abroad".

There is no long-term military solution in Georgia. Ukraine should be
the source of stability in the region and pursue active diplomacy.

Will NATO now want to accept Georgia or Ukraine after all this? Until
the Ossetian conflict is fully resolved this won't happen. And
"answering Russians", as Dick Cheney suggested (see BBC News) will
only make things worse and create many more "pretexts".

Vadim





On Mon, Aug 11, 2008 at 1:23 PM, Sorokowski, Andrew (ENRD)
<Andrew.Sorokowski at usdoj.gov> wrote:
> I believe Mr. Berezhny's point is that a stream of selected facts
> obviously intended to support a single interpretation is "propaganda"
> and not appropriate on the AAUS list. I agree.
> I think the appropriate focus of Georgia-related discussion on this
list
> -- and by discussion I mean analysis, not bare citation of facts --
> would be not Mr. Saakashvili's alleged criminality, or the "insanity"
of
> war (I would say its immorality, for alas, this one is very sanely
> calculated), but the implications of the Georgian crisis for Ukraine,
> for example the Crimea or the Donbas. There is plenty to discuss
there.
>
>
> Andrew Sorokowski
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: aaus-list-bounces at ukrainianstudies.org
> [mailto:aaus-list-bounces at ukrainianstudies.org] On Behalf Of Vadim
> Sent: Monday, August 11, 2008 1:03 PM
> To: oles at berezhny.net
> Cc: aaus
> Subject: Re: [aaus-list] AP Photos: Civilians who Saakashvili bombed
> with"Hailstorm"
>
> Why is this propaganda? Am I not using facts? Please respond exactly
> and don't flood the list with factless statements.
>
> Any war is insanity. The direct conclusion from the facts is that
> Saakashvili is as much a war criminal as Putin is.
>
> Vadim
>
>
>
>
> On Mon, Aug 11, 2008 at 12:50 PM,  <oles at berezhny.net> wrote:
>>
>>
>> PLEASE STOP THIS PROPAGANDA ON THE AAUS LIST!
>>
>> Than you very much.
>>
>>
>>
>> Oles Berezhny
>> Ukrainian Language and Culture Instructor
>> Foreign Service Institute
>> Washington, DC
>>
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