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Music and Art at the Ukrainian Institute of America
Posted by Tatiana on January 28, 2002 at 03:44:52:
In Reply to: Re: Russian Extremists Are Anti-Ukrainian Language posted by Tatiana B. Durbak on January 25, 2002 at 10:02:35:
: : : : : : Russian extremists that reside mostly in the eastern cities where they displaced the Ukrainian population by mass murder and discrimination still attempt to undermine Ukrainian freedom and language. Most Russians in Russia believe that Ukraine should return to Russian colonialism. This is why the Ukrainian language is so important. Ukrainian language=Free Ukraine as a seperate country from Russia.
: : : : : they are all wrong, Sir, but it still doesnt change the matter of progress...Think about one Europe,currency change...blah, blah,... insted lets start talking about languge discrimination and may be leter we will move to more practical mesures etc...
: : : : Or may be one day we will become a respectable and equal part of EUROPE and will be sharing friendly conversation with our German brothers in loony night with jag of their beer and build a large fence across our borther with slavic russians.
: : I am a Ukrainian-American. My father came here in '52. As a little girl growing up in a non-immigrant area, because my father was from the "Soviet Union" and almost every American we met called anyone from the USSR, "Russians", I grew up with that label. I knew it was oversimplifying it for me, but I went with it. After all it was hard enough that no one could pronounce my name (1st or last). And we were dealing with all sorts of prejudice anyway. I still meet people today, who insist, on refering to my recent trip to Ukraine,as my trip to Russia! My father spoke both languages, (and several others). When in Ukraine recently, I learned that unfortunately many ethnic Ukrainians can only speak Russian! When one is worried about survival, there is not time to worry about learning Ukrainian! Luckily, their children will learn it! However, I wanted to learn Ukrainian, as I never learned any language but English, but I feel I'm in a quandry. It would be much more practical for me to learn Russian! Since not every Ukrainian speaks Ukrainian, I feel it will be difficult for me when I visit, and simpiler to learn the one language most everyone will understand! Unfortunately, in speaking to American businessmen, etc. they seem to beleive this to be true as well, and even consider Russian the language of the Ukrainian people! I don't have the answers, but Ukraine is in no position to turn off prospective business pursuits and tourism! They need the boost for the economy! I personally have listened to both languages and learned a little of each and feel that Ukrainian is the more beautifully sounding language. And I think it seems easier to grasp (at least it was for me, for some reason). But, for the person who suggested it should replace the Russian language for all Ukrainian citizens, let's not forget that it IS a different language and it's really not that easy to change the language one has grown up with-which is what some of you seem to expect from otherwise proud Ukrainian citizens! Can the government afford to offer Ukrainian language classes for adults? I think the only answer is to consider Russian the official second language, somewhat like the U.S. handles Spanish. They do need to make an effort to change all signs to Ukrainian (or in both languages) I was frustrated to see street signs in Russian only!! P.S. I had to consistently use both my Ukrainian and Russian dictionaries-now think about the tourists who only bring a Ukrainian dictionary, and most of the citizens don't understand them?
: You know, Tatiana, different people can come to different conclusions.
: My name is also Tatiana. We came to the US 3 years before you did. Although we lived among Ukrainians for several years, when I was 10, we moved to the West coast to an area where there were hardly any Ukrainians. I had no Ukrainian friends -- only American ones. My teachers also had a hard time pronouncing my name, but they learned. My friends called me Tania, as I was called at home, and none of them had trouble with that name.
: Unlike you, I was taught Ukrainian. My brothers (both the one born before we left Newark and the ones who were born after we left) also learned Ukrainian. To this day, we speak only Ukrainian with each other (unless we are part of a group of people where not everyone speaks Ukrainian), mainly because it feels normal.
: My teachers and many other people also used to tell me and my parents that we were Russian. Somehow, my parents managed to teach me and my brithers to be able to explain to people that I was not Russian, but Ukrainian. They also taught us to explain the difference. It was not always easy, but somehow, it never occurred to me or to my brothers to let ourselves be called Russian.
: We didn't fight with people about this; we explained. Many people were glad to learn the difference; others did not care.
: I have been fortunate to be able to travel to Ukraine quite a few times. I have travelled in central Ukraine and have met people (becoming friends with several) from eastern parts of Ukraine. Although many of them grew up speaking Russian, we were able to communicate quite well, with me speaking in Ukrainian.
: I have learned Russian. I use it when I speak with Russian clients. If I were to travel to Russia, I would speak Russian there. If I meet people who do not speak Ukrainian, but speak Russian, I use that language, just as I use other languages that I know with speakers of those languages.
: However, there is a difference between private and public langauge use.
: Most countries have an official language. In the US, that language is English. All persons who work for the government are required to learn and be able to use that language. In the US, even private employers are permitted to require that the people they hire speak English. There is case law on that point. Although there are many forms printed in Spanish, Spanish is NOT an official language. It might interest you to know that since 1997, it is no longer required that immigration forms (even those dealing with immigration court and the rights and responsibilities of Respondents) be printed in any language other than English. There is also a fairly strong "English only" movement in the US. Many people want to see nothing official in any foreign language.
: I understand all of the difficulties in Ukraine regarding the language issue. However, it is not unreasonable to require that public officials learn Ukrainian. It is not unreasonable to expect that public officials (especially elected ones) use Ukrainian when speaking at public functions. The leaders of most countries choose to speak in their official languages at official finctions and use interpreters when necessary. When they choose to speak another language at a public function, that choice is almost always a political statement.
: I think that it's sad that people decide that it's more practical to learn Russian than Ukrainian when interacting with people in Ukraine. It's further proof of the fact that Russia's imperialism was far more successful than many of us realized. It's even more sad when people of Ukrainian anscestry choose to learn Russian, instead of Ukrainian, b/c it's more practical. I know that it will take time for this to change, but Ukrainians need to work to help this change come about.
: We Ukrainians (I consider myself to be both a Ukrainian and an American, even if I do not live in Ukraine) need to cherish our language. This does not mean that we should believe that it is more important than another one. Neither does it mean that we should expect everyone to learn Ukrainian. It only means that we must believe that our language is equal to any other and that it should be given the same respect as any other. It also means that we should not consider it unreasonable to expect people to learn Ukrainian if they want to live in, do business in, or hold public positions in Ukraine. This recognition must start with us.
: History plays an important part in all of this. History should not be a millstone around our necks, but neither should it be forgotten. If we do not learn history's lessons, we are doomed to suffer repeatedly the same misfortunes that we suffered before.
: I believe that, with time, things will get better -- both on the language front and on the economic front. As one who has a background in languages and linguistics, I know that language is important - both symbolically and actually. I think that it's dangerous for our existence as Ukrainians to give up our language.
OK Let me clarify some points, 1st I should have stated that I am half Ukrainian. I did not learn Ukrainian because my mother was not Ukrainian and we spoke the common language of both my parents which was English. 2nd I did try to explain the difference between Ukraine and Russia to people, to no avail. 3rd We never lived among immigrants, as you did for 10 years. 4th My father was involved in very sensitive top-secret government aerospace work, and both my parents were perhaps sensitive and afraid of, being labled un-American. I have always regretted not learning a foreign language especially one of my parents' languages, but I have always been proud of my Ukrainian roots all the same. I agree with you on almost every point you mentioned, however, people were literally biting off someone's head over her decision to learn Russian! My pragmatic side has to agree that for someone who speaks neither language and wants to visit Ukraine, they will encounter many people who speak Russian and many who do not speak Ukrainian! Many of the street signs are still in Russian, or Russian and English. They should be in Ukrainian and Russian or just Ukrainian. Ukraine (as a country, I don't mean the people) is NOT tourist friendly, as I discovered, and I believe that promoting tourism is part of the answer to come out of their economic crisis. To encourage tourists to forget about studying Russian is ludicrous. Ukrainian language classes are far and few between in this country and not all tourists have Ukrainian roots, they simply want to get by! My only point was that we should not pretend that the Russian language is suddenly in disuse when the opposite is true, and mislead innocent tourists into a situation where they may well not understand the language being spoken to them. You speak both Russian and Ukrainian, I don't think it would be so simple for an American tourist with a Ukrainian phrase book and dictionary to try to interpret someone who is speaking to them in Russian. My point is: let's not pretend Ukrainian is the only language spoken in Ukraine. I's sad, but it's true. By the way the last I heard the U.S. does not have an "official" language. It was never made into law and we do have a second language-Spanish, again, it's not official either, but everyone knows that in certain areas one could get by with Spanish only! This is my point. Why discourage potential business investments and tourism from people who have come to see their Russian speaking ability as an asset in Ukraine. They are more likely to spend their time and their MONEY in a country in which they can communicate. I'm NOT saying that the Ukrainians shouldn't continue working on the change to make Ukrainian not just official,but the first and foremost language in their nation. I'm simply saying that it will be difficult for them. I've talked to Ukrainians (not Russians) who have stated the difficulties of changing their daily language from Russian to Ukrainian, students who spoke of the problems of taking tests in Ukrainian which were once in Russian (their first language) but I agree with you that all government officials should speak Ukrainian. However, we should have some empathy in our pridefulness-I would have great difficulties if it were suddenly decided that Spanish was to be our official language instead of English. Anyway, Ukraine needs to be concerned with their economy foremost! Of course because I am Ukrainian I would prefer to learn Ukrainian, but because I'm a very practical person (perhaps to a fault) I'm still struggling to decide which language to focus on learning. You said you were able to speak Ukrainian to the Russian speakers and communicate quite well. Did they answer in Russian or Ukrainian? Because you also stated that you speak Russian. I really want to know if I can get by with everyone in Ukraine, speaking and comprehending ONLY Ukrainian, as this is the language I would prefer to learn. Of course there is also the problem of finding a Ukrainian course, and I doubt if I can. So again I'm back to Russian because at least I would have that! Perhaps if I learn Russian, and then self-study Ukrainian? Or perhaps someone out there should consider teaching the Ukrainain language as a career option. Sincerely, Tatiana P.S. I have always gone by Tatiana in the home and out, even though I knew I could use the nickname Tanya, I proudly chose to use my full name.